This weekend we went for a desert ride, well one of the "old timers" who has an XR400 is now itching for a CRF450. I told him I thought they were too maintenance intensive for a play rider, well another know-it-all who was standing there (but not on the ride I might add) said "remember so-and-so, he's had one for 3 years, never rebuilt it, it's just fine...." Anyway I am a heavy truck mechanic by trade so I am big into service invervals, etc. So I was wondering if any of the dire predictions about these 4 strokes being an expensive PITA are coming to fruition, or if you can really expect them to survive 3 or more years of long, though non-competitive riding.

Myself if I had to buy new bikes it would be just updated versions of what I have now, an XR650 and a CR500AF, if I could get a big enough tank and a soft seat, otherwise I would just buy a steel frame CR500

Birken

There aren't any, are there? Those are just spook stories made up by 2 stroke guys who don't want to enter the 21st Century.

Rob - Give it a rest.

Birken - With regular maintenance the CRF 450 has proven to be a great engine, but probably not the best choice for consistent desert riding. It's oil capacity and maintenance intervals are clearly designed around MX usage. The XR650R or the CR500AF would be much better choices for the application.

Well case closed, Rich. I guess there really aren't any of the 4 stroke horror stories he asked for. I notice no one has posted any by 12:30 today.

I know that many of those alleged horror stories I've seen and heard about were caused by insufficient maintenance and were not the fault of the bike.

I know I have a reputation as a "2 stroke guy" - and rightly so. However, maybe you didn't see it, but I believe I posted yesterday in another thread that I agreed that any bike, 4 stroke or 2, properly maintained, will likely last a long time. That's not the issue with me. The fact that 4 strokes are more maintenance intensive makes them less appealing to me because of the extra time and money issues - and I don't have enough of either.

It appeared from the post that Birken is having some of the same concerns. And yes, from my friend's experience and from what I see on here, I'd agree that the CRF450 is pretty reliable when it's maintained properly.

And yes, one of my buddies has a 250f horror story, and he's trading it (oddly enough, for another 250f) less than a month after buying it. Others were trying to persuade him to get a CRF450 instead.

Rob - You are correct, I didn't see it. I usually ignore your posts, mainly because like so many others you provide nothing to this type of thread other than simple parroting of third person " my friend's cousin's brother knew a guy" horror stories with no details, or the standard two-stroke zealot knee jerk response like you posted above.

Just like in your profession, having real facts with real details, about specific failures is far more useful when someone has specific questions. Your insistance on constantly piping in with nothing useful is getting really OLD.

If you would bother to look you'd see I'm one of the few who has bothered to document some very specific issues with specific current four-strokes. Unlike you, I'm actually QUALIFIED to answer Birken's questions.

We get it Rob you like two-strokes. When you can do something other than RIDE a bike and pay someone else to modify it get back to me.

Richard, don't hide from your feelings!

Here's yet another "unqualified" post, at least compared to Rich anyway.
The only failure I've had with a "modern" 4T motor was a bad left side main bearing. The bike was a 2002 yz426f. I feel that this part failed prematurely, but this is only my opinion. Fortunitely, I cought the problem before it could mess up anything else and only had to replace the main bearings. This could have just as likely happened on a 2-stroke as a 4-stroke. This was something I was a little pissed about at the time, who likes to split the cases on any motor. But, it will not keep me from buying another yzf if that is what I want in the future. Other than the main bearing problem, my '02 yzf has been bullet proof, not even needing the valves shimmed.

I do agree that for desert riding, a XR650, CR500, or 525exc to be your best options.

Rich:

First, did I represent myself as knowing as much as you in another life?

Second, I have received several complements on the usefulness of my posts, but you are entitled to your opinion. Apparently some here think I "pipe in" with useful things on occasion. And BTW, the other day I actually recommended a 4 stroke to a fellow on here - and I did not try to discourage my friend from getting the new 250f - he's got the money, knowledge, time and discipline to keep it going for years. If that's the way he wants to go, there's a 99% chance he'll have a fine bike for quite some time.

The point I was trying to make with the initial, sarcastic post is that most 4 stroke guys (and I do not deny that 2 stroke guys like myself are/have been biased as well) go on and on about how great the 4 strokes are, but when someone asks what the problems with them are, in many cases the response is a lot of crickets chirping - unless a 2 stroke guy posts something critical, then the 2 stroke guy will get flamed.

To prove my point, Birken asked for stories about 4 stroke problems at about 10:15 - and still 6 hours later the only two stories are from 2 stroke guys - one experiential and one anecdotal.

I don't recall EVER seeing a 4 stroke MX guy admit that if there were no double displacement advantage rule in MX, he'd be on a 2 stroke. I suppose those posts exist, but I haven't seen them. The refusal by many to acknowledge that gets "really OLD" as well.

And Rich, till YOU basically told me to shut up, I made no reference to YOU. I highly respect your knowledge of motorcycles, as you may have noted in the past, when I have sought your information and advice - and I would do so again should the need arise - you were VERY helpful on the fuel issues.

I have bothered to look at your posts on numerous occasions, and I am well aware of the specific problems you have documented re: the 4 strokes and especially your fuel articles. I've read quite a bit of it, and I have used them to discuss the problems with others - to the point of printing them so others can read them.

Yeah Rich, I get it - I know nothing about motorcycle engines compared to you - and as noted, I have never represented that I do. You are the all-knowing god of motorcycle knowledge compared to me (and I am not being sarcastic here - that's a compliment). With the exception of Eric, I don't know of anyone else I would sooner ask a difficult engine question.

In fact, in the initial version of my first response to your telling me to shut up, I had a whole paragraph basically bowing down to you precisely because I know I don't know much at all about motors experientially. I took it out for brevity and because I thought you'd get the point. You get the equivalent in this paragraph.

And BTW, I provided details of my friend's RMZ250 in another post last week and saw no need to repeat it in this thread. Suffice it to say the bike is, in his words, "the biggest piece of junk I've ever seen."

unless of course the failures, etc aren't happening nearly as much to us 4-strokers as the 2-strokers like to think

I think Rich's problem is that you are passing a lot of bad mojo towards 4-strokes with no personal experience. A lot of he said / she said / I read on the internet, stuff. If your opinion was somewhat balanced (yeah, I've seen the 1-2 4t posts of yours) and didn't come across as so biased... ? The "what bike do I get" replies seem canned; "not reliable, expensive maint, get a 2-stroke".

Fact is, 4-T's aren't as bad and 2-T's aren't as good as a lot of the stuff you read on the web would indicate.

Odd.. the biggest pile of rolling crap I ever owned was a 2-stroke (seriously). How is that useful for anything?

I'm sure everyone appreciates the input, but honestly, seem to be way too biased towards one bike type.

Hey Rob, I like your posts, please don't be discouraged, sometimes there are situations where there is a lack of soundly researched and replicated data, and anecdotal evidence is all thats available, often coloured with personal opinion. If everyone only posted known and referenced facts, there would'nt be very much to read on here! Also, I think that some of the more outrageous posts ( I don't mean yours ) are an excellent method of stirring up Rich to step in with his specialist knowledge and outstanding pictorial and written communication skills.
For the type of riding mentioned I would think the CR500 would last nearly forever, but might it be a bit of a handfull ? I would have thought a pukka enduro bike of largish capacity ( either 4t or 2t ) would fit the bill, although I don't have personal experience.