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Helmets...why pay more?
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Posted by: wanaride---------------------

I'm currently on my third HJC helmet and I have been impressed with HJC thus far. It seems odd to me that I wear a $100 helmet and $300 boots...

Can anyone tell me whether or not the more expensive helmets (Arai, Shoei, TLD) offer better head protection than the less expensive brands like HJC?

If they do a better job in the protection department I'll likely move up next time, but if all that extra money is simply thrown at better graphics and lighter materials, I'll stick with HJC.

I really don't care what my "favorite rider" is wearing, I just want maximum protection.

Thanks!

Posted by: KX02---------------------

Allot of pro's are wearing HJC, I haven't heard anything bad about them. Just remember boots are made in Italy, use more expensive materials, and require allot of labor. HJC and most other helmets are made in Asia these days where labor is dirt cheap.

Posted by: biglou---------------------

Check out this thread, particularly post #7 http://www.dirtrider.net/forums3/sh...eferrerid=19516

Posted by: DEX---------------------

Another local pro racer and guy I practice with occasionaly has a saying on this subject.

"If you have a hundred dollar head, wear a hundred dollar helmet. Personally I have a hundred dollar head but protect it with a thousand dollar helmet."

I just went to that auction site and bought two 500 dollar helmets for 100 dollars each!

Posted by: xsnrg---------------------

wanaride, With the HJC, stay with the AC-X1 or X2 and up rather than the CLX line and I believe you have protection on par with the Bell, Shoei, and Arai. Get a shell that will crack if you take a hit (composite) rather than a shell that would bounce (solid thermoplastic).

Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------

They all pass the safety standards so i would be surprised if they differ that much in protection levels, i think the fit is important to allow the helmet to work properly.

Posted by: bclapham---------------------

The Shoei and the Arai far, far exceed all the others in terms of saftey. I have a friend that works in the industry, he buys all the helmets on the market and they test them, so i have this info on good authority. The Shoei and Arai are made in Japan and are much higher quality IMO.

As for the TLD, all you are paying for is the expensive paint job.- TLD dont even make that helmet, its made in Korea by a company that only made mountain bike helmets before, no wonder its light!

Its a bit like comparing a Honda with a Kia!

If you are looking for a top quality helmet on a budget, have a look at the Shoei V-Moto- rockymountain has good prices for them.

Posted by: bclapham---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcusgunby

They all pass the safety standards so i would be surprised if they differ that much in protection levels, i think the fit is important to allow the helmet to work properly.

Sorry marcus, some pass, some fail and some far exceed the standards.

But you are right, fit is very important.

Posted by: wanaride---------------------

Thanks guys, outstanding info, especially from bclapham about his buddy in the helmet testing industry.

Sounds like I need an excuse to slip a $400-500 purchase by the wife...well, she is the one who noted how stupid it was to have a $100 helmet and $300 boots!!

Posted by: bclapham---------------------

Wanaride- check out the V-moto by Shoei- its very good value.

Also, Shoei have a new lid coming out, so have a look for good deals on their VFRX lid.

Posted by: holeshot---------------------

If you've got a $450 head, buy a $450 dollar helmet. I figure my head is worth about $200.

Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------

bruce your probably right but i would like to see the data before knowing this to be the case.

Posted by: tx246---------------------

oh boy....this helmet stuff is a pet peeve of mine. the only problem i see with people buying expensive helmets is that they might not replace them when they should. it takes deep pockets to be able to can a helmet after a few knocks on it. people dont realize the damage a helmet takes to the inner styro on the simplest of impacts. i challenge yall to take a good look at the styro liner of the helmet that you are going to wear this weekend. most are painted black and impressions and cracks show up easily. those impressions are where your head was decellerated from simple get offs. from my understanding, its the liner performs most of the work in decellerating your head. my last helmet never saw me going over the bars at 40mph or running into trees. as a matter of fact most of the helmet trauma was generated by lowside crashes in corners. my point is that i would rather have a fresh middle of the road helmet than an old top of the line helmet that should of been replaced but wasnt because of money. for those of you who can say you replace your top shelf helmet at the first sign of liner damage, carry on, but those of you who cant honestly say you would replace it might consider the above.

Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Very good point tx246.

Posted by: bclapham---------------------

Well, all i can talk about is my experience with Shoei- they offer free inspection, and their customer service is excellend. I know quite a few riders that have had a good crash, but they have checked everything out and have cleared them for future use.

One note, the thing that puts the Shoei and Arai above the rest is that they make a new shell for every size, rather than one shell with different thickness padding etc.

As for the expense of things- well, i am not gonna cheap on a helmet, but i dont think just over $300 is too bad for the Shoei that i run. What amazes me is that people will show up with a $500 pipe, yet run cheapo helmets.

Posted by: kuritaro9---------------------

i would have to say that sizing is the most important thing.i have an "lets say odd"shaped head,and found that i can pretty much only wear arai lids.a bonus is that they sell dif. sized cheek pads for a perfect fit.not many companies do that.i know here in japan,the also offer an inspection service.not sure about the states.i love my arai.it is the most comfy thing i have ever worn...for a helmet anyway.also,some of the higher end companies will sell blank shell to a reputable painter,then when the paint job is done,they ship it back to them for arai to install all the labels and foam.that way it wont void the warranty.check out a shop that carries a lot of lids,and try them on till you find one that fits.remember that the liner will break in slightly,so if it is a little snug at first,it may fit perfect after a ride or two.

Posted by: Sawblade---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by bclapham

One note, the thing that puts the Shoei and Arai above the rest is that they make a new shell for every size, rather than one shell with different thickness padding etc.

Arai only does this with their street helmets. I pulled the following from Arai's web site from the FAQ.

WHAT ABOUT OPEN-FACE AND OFF-ROAD HELMETS?
Arai's Motocross and off-road helmets - the VX and MXC series - as well as our three-quarter open-face helmet lines - the Classic and SZ Series - do not share the multiple-fit packages. These are built on a single-fit package that runs in the middle of the shape range. This is because Arai has had very little problem fitting customers choosing these products, within the single-fit package.

Bell has has the new Moto8 coming out with a release date of April. MSRP for the Moto8 matt black is $350.95. The McGrath and Motoworld is $399.95, with the rest of the colors going for $375.95.

http://www.bellmoto8.com

tx246 - Okies right, nothing but straight shooten and common sense on that one!

Posted by: bclapham---------------------

you guys can wear whatever you want-i am not here to prove myself right or wrong on this topic. i wear a shoei since i have it on quite good authroity that they make one hell of a good and very safe helmet, that is supposedly better than anything out there. it wasnt cheap, and if it gets a knock, then i will replace it, regardless of $$$$

last year, we lost about 10 (TEN) riders at my local tracks. One young man was from my club, he died from head injuries sustained from a racing crash. I am not saying any brand would have saved him or not, but i will never forget the tears i have shed over that, and the tears i saw plenty of others shed. For that, i will go an extra week on a set of tires, or a month on a top end, or just not bother with them new graphics for sake of getting the best helmet i can.

The first post was about the high end helmets vs boots- my opinion, dont spend more on your boots than you do your helmet.

Posted by: Jaybird---------------------

The tests that the Gov. madates be conducted on helmets to meet certain specifications...DOT, Snell, etc... are the very same tests for all helmets,yes?
Bruce, when you say that some helmets do not pass...are you saying that these helmets are listing that they meet the specifications, yet they don't really pass the tests? Or do you mean that these helmets aren't passing the tests that your Pal is conducting on them?
If a helmet passes the DOT and Snell approvals, can we not assume that they are safe per industry standards?
I just have a hard time buying the high-dollar helmet logic that gets thrown around.
My personal opinion is right in line with Marcus and tx246.

If I have a very serious crash involving my headbone, I will definately check things out and try to discern if I need to replace my helmet or not...however, I want to see a show of hands of all the folks who change out helmets after a crash no matter what. Be honest.

Bruce, how many times did you crash last year? Trash out your helmet each time?
One more question, while I'm on a roll....could ya float a brother a loan?

Posted by: jmics19067---------------------

Jay bird,

I beleive Bruce is saying that the helmets that pass the tests, do pass the tests, it is just that some helmets have better grades with Arai & Shoei on top. Also D.O.T. tests are only mandated for street legality, Snell is a volunteer program the helmet manufactures sign up for. There are some helmets out there that don't meet either.Kinda ticks me off that there are hard shelled motorcycle styled helmets out there that might be good enough to teach your kid to roller skate ,but since it looks like a motorcycle helmet some people think it is good enough to protect you when riding.

". from my understanding, its the liner performs most of the work in decellerating your head. my last helmet never saw me going over the bars at 40mph or running into trees. as a matter of fact most of the helmet trauma was generated by lowside crashes in corners. my point is that i would rather have a fresh middle of the road helmet than an old top of the line helmet that should of been replaced but wa"

That is a question I ask, unfortunately I believe the answer is that you can't be overprotected, and there is no written rule on what is adequate protection. All the tests are done in the same manner for all helmets while all crashes are going to be different.And I am not so sure that the testing involved can ccurately duplicate the different types of problems helmets are supposed to protect us from. I have had relatively high speed instances where you tumble and slide,helmet visor broken off,all scratched up and just plain ugly looking shell with no known damage to my skull

I have also been trail riding at relatively slow speed when i just run into a low hanging branch that rung my bell hard enough that I would quit riding for the day

.

My only recourse is to buy a Snell2000 that I can afford at the time buy early and buy often since I dont bother with sending them out to get tested.

Posted by: Lissa---------------------

Here's the deal, the low dollar helmets are a two piece design while the more exspensive helmets are a one piece design. Even on the middle-of-the-road helmets they are also a two piece design. The difference? The two piece has seam that goes straight down the middle of the helmet. The manufactues will usually sand this seam away so it 'looks' like a single piece construction helmet. What this means is upon a really hard impact it could split in half! Not good. I wore HJC's, KBC's and now I wear a Arai. I will never again buy a cheaper helmet. Just the differences in construction between this and my previous helmets when I disassemble them to wash the liner is huge. The more exspensive helmets are also lighter and fit much more snug and secure. Don't be fooled, it is worth the money for a better helmet.

Posted by: bclapham---------------------

the first thread was asking the difference between the high end helmets and the regular ones.

I answered this to the best of my knowledge, i believe there is a big difference between the japanese made Arai and Shoei and the others that are made in Korea and elsewhere in Asia.

It seems this thread is turning into one of those "I am right, you are wrong, lets beat this to death threads" I am not arguing anymore, where what helmet you want.

Posted by: fundgh---------------------

I am just getting into dirt riding, but the last bit of MC experience I had was plowing into the back of a stopped car doing about 40. I did considerable damage to my MC, and I took the tailgate on my mouth (guard). The helmet is done, but made a great sacrifice. I had on hiking boots (ruined), a polar fleece jacket (cut off by ems), and Jeans (ripped), but my head was OK. Point being...my helmet was the only piece of gear that I had invested in, and had I skimped and bought a German Soldier top cap, I would be missing everything from my nose down. I agree with the point that you should not skimp on a helmet, but the question in my mind is, are there helmets that DO NOT protect your head sufficiently? Are the $100 O'neal, Fox, Thor, Answer, No Fear, etc helmets lacking anything? Are the high dollar helmets going to protect you more in a crash, or are they just filled with bitchin' features like ventilation, paint, removable/washable foam?

Posted by: bclapham---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by fundgh

are there helmets that DO NOT protect your head sufficiently? Are the $100 O'neal, Fox, Thor, Answer, No Fear, etc helmets lacking anything? Are the high dollar helmets going to protect you more in a crash, or are they just filled with bitchin' features like ventilation, paint, removable/washable foam?

In my opinion, yes. Also, my opinion is that i dont want to prove that right or wrong for the sake of $200-300!

Heres a funny story- well maybe not funny actually. I friend of mine had a brand new $200 helmet from one of the high end gear manufacturers. He was waiting on the gate for his moto, and someone crashed on the track right in front of everyones view. This dude had the same helmet on as my friend, and it split right in two, down the middle seam.

Needless to say, my friend turned up the next week with a different lid!

Posted by: bclapham---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sawblade

Sawblade:

1. are you sure that is talking about using just one shell? doesnt sound clear to me.

2. lets talk dollars- if you dont think $350-400 is too much for a lid, you can get the Shoei V-moto for less.

Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Materials quality, ease of maintenance (cleaning, etc), weight and FIT are the top reasons I spend $ on helmets. Fit is one of the biggest factors in how a helmet performs at impact.

Arai DOES make different shells, the quote above must be referring to fitting with interior changes (pad sizes, liner, etc.) not fitting all models in the Arai line.

Bottom line, without engineering info and some actual data, we are all speculating here. That being the case, I'll stick with what seems to be the best I can put on my head. Seems to me that most of the "it costs more due to fancy graphics" posts are by those who looked at two helmets and went with the cheaper one; afterall, this is a very expensive hobby. No one needs to justify their purchase either way, just go ride and good luck to you if you have to rely on your helmet.

Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------

Bruce problem is going without on for example tires etc may actually make you need to use the extra safety a shoei might have? its all logical whats been written but i would like to know how much safer a Shoei is than a cheapo- 10% , 50%? i cant make a informed choice on this as we need someone to stump up the data, i understand some compainies may not want this, but we have a setup with cars-the ncap tests are very good -1 to 5 stars gives you a good idea what you are getting.Its great you have the info on this, but it needs to be public and given clarification on the test data.

If my M2R rated a 1 star i would buy a new one tomorrow.

Posted by: Chili---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaybird

I want to see a show of hands of all the folks who change out helmets after a crash no matter what. Be honest.

After every crash obviously not, a decent impact to the head and the helmet get's replaced is my feeling. LazyBoy knocked himself out practicing last season, I examined the liner of the helmet (HJC) and didn't see any visible signs of damage to the liner but in the end I figured he had hit it hard enough to lose conciousness that it was time to retire (not sell to some poor unsuspecting kid on e-boy) the lid. On the opposite note after his cartwheel routine through the rythmn section at DW last year he showed no signs of banging his head and again his M2R shows no signs of damage to the liner so we will likely run it again this season as a backup/practice helmet.

Posted by: Sawblade---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by bclapham

Once I read the statement again tonight its not so clear. Okie may be right in that they are talking about pad sizes not shell sizing.

As for what passes at a higher standard we will never know. The manufactures are not going to release this information due to product liability. Its kind of like the old story about passing the bar exam to become a lawyer. The guy with the lowest passing score is still a lawyer, maybe not the smartest lawyer. But a lawyer none the less. After all any helmet that passes DOT and or Shell standards are only passing a set minimum requirement.

No doubt both Arai and Shoei make a very nice helmet. But Arai has placed themselves in a position of elitist with only being able to purchase a Arai from a "approved dealer" to ensure your helmet fits correctly. Like the guy behind the counter in most shops is an expert in fitting helmets. IMO this is part of the reason that HJC and others have become so popular in the last few years. They make a acceptable priced product that the buying public is willing to purchase. My local Honda shop is an Arai dealer, but they do not stock any helmets. When I asked why, they replied that 90 % of their customers buy the HJC at half the price of the Arai. IMO this turns a lot of people away from buying a Arai. But the real answer I would guess is back to the product liability concerns that caused Arai to only sale through a brick and mortar location and not mail or internet order.

Posted by: Lissa---------------------

Our dealer is a Arai dealer. The reason our shop and most other Arai selling shops do not keep many examples (we do have a few in stock for sizing reasons) in stock is because of expense and the fact that the helmets we do (and did) stock are never the ones that anybody wants. People who are spending the kind of money to purchase a high quality helmet like a Arai, Shoei or Suomy (we carry all 3) usually will not settle for whats on the shelf. They want exactly what they want and nothing less where as a purchaser of a lesser expensive helmet will be alot more inclined to settle for whats on the shelf.

Posted by: LAN_Guru---------------------

I had posted this in the old helmet thread by mistake so here goes:

I would be interested to know how the One Industries Trooper helmet compares to the others from a protection standpoint. The Trooper Hurricane matches the Hurricane graphics on my bike perfectly

But, that said, if it's protection is substandard, my money will be spent on a Shoei or Aria.

Thanks in advance...

Posted by: kuritaro9---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAN_Guru

I had posted this in the old helmet thread by mistake so here goes:

I would be interested to know how the One Industries Trooper helmet compares to the others from a protection standpoint. The Trooper Hurricane matches the Hurricane graphics on my bike perfectly

But, that said, if it's protection is substandard, my money will be spent on a Shoei or Aria.

Thanks in advance...

shoei also makes a hurricane vfxr for the japan market.you may be able order one...

Posted by: super rat---------------------

I'd like to add that I run a white top of the line Shoei with some duct tape graphics, cause I don't want to look like some goob.

Posted by: Milhaus---------------------

I think part of why this thread keeps going is because there really isnt anything more that anecdotes, hypotheses and philosphies, and no real hard evidence either way (although the 2 piece design is interesting, but even that is inconsequential , because many 2 piece designs when done properly can be stronger than 1 piece). Saying things like "$500 helmet for $500. head" is pointless because 1)it assumes that you always get what you pay for, and often this isnt the case 2) it doesnt even make sense....My head to me is worth $200,000....doesnt mean I can buy a $200k helmet, so in this case should I fell uncomfortable using a helmet that cost a piddly $500? Using that scheme, then can I really expect there to be a diff between a $150. lid and a $500 one?
-"I was in a crash and I surviived because i had the latest brand X helmet" Great for a commercial, but how do we know what would have happened with another more or less expensive helmet? we can't, so its pure speculation and hersay, no science. Science saves lives, not hearsay. -Does a brand name always determine quality? Mercedes benz used to be thought of as a top quality manufacturer, but recently their stuff is under scrutiny for being of painfully poor quality. Similar thing happened with cadillac years ago. What happened? How do we find out which manufacturer MAINTAINS quality, streives for innovation, invests in R&D rather than just marketing, and doesnt outsource their manufacturing to so-called "second rate" manufacturers?
Until a major lawsuit occurs, or perhaps someone finds a way to cash in on providing unbiased tests and reviews (which I for one would be more than willing to contribute to)-magazines are rarely reliable as they favor the products by their advertisers, we may never know.

Posted by: xsnrg---------------------

When I was buying, I was told what many hear, that the more expensive helmets were a waste of money and that many middle-of-the-road brands offered just as good of protection as the Shoei's, Arai, Bell's, etc. Since I was only going to be riding trails 1x to 2x per month for a few hours each time, I couldn't justify the $300-$500 expense. I bought a HJC CLX helmet via e8ay on this advice and when I got it, I noticed that the shell was injection molded thermoplastic (read: Bounce on impact). I was a bit miffed, because I thought I had gotten the composite shell (read: crack/dent on impact), so I ordered myself a new HJC AC-X2...I love the helmet in fit and feel, but thankfully have not significantly tested the function. It made sense to me that you at the very least want a shell that cracks/dents instead of bounces. It should absorb much more energy instead of bouncing and transferring the energy absorption to your brain compressing against the inside of the skull. Same philosophy as the crumple zones in cars. When I was buying, the composite shells could not be found for less than about $150-$175.

Posted by: silencebe4thestorm---------------------

Cant i just use my football helmet it gets hit pretty hard over and over again and looks good???

That was a joke just for those that dont get it

Posted by: highflyernick---------------------

I dunno, my head starts to hurt in my football helmet after some good hits. Anyways, no one has said anything about M2R? I was looking at the X-2 and was wondering about them?

Posted by: Glikens11---------------------

i didn't take the time to read all of your guys posts but i did read some of them and i didn't see this...I just got a new helmet from are local dealer and he was talkin to me he told me that the main things that cause the price differences are the weight and the graphics. He was showing me this Carbon fiber one and i asked him whats the difference between this one it was an HJC and your carbon fiber one he said weight but they will both protect your head the same just the carbon fiber one was 400 dollars compared to 120 dollars so if your not racing or freestyle or something i would go with something in the mid range I ended up with the JNC i think thats what it is i can't really read the logo but its the JNC kombat series and i love it it cost me a little over 150

Posted by: brian2372---------------------

there is some great info here .i own a fly helmet and the reason i bought it was because it fits me better than any other helmet ever and its carbon/kevlar. price was not my concern but it just fits great.i read a artical several years ago that said that a helmet should be discarded every five years because the sun can break down its constuction material.after having a carbon fiber helmet i can never go back to a heavier one.i also think that there are some helmets that look cool with nice graphics but are of ultra low quality.my wife has a fox helmet and the forehead vents fell off after a few rides and the viser never has worked right ,basicly a peice of junk .

Posted by: railer---------------------

uh....I was thinking of buying a Thor helmet...is this bad or good?

Posted by: +30---------------------

bclapham,
you mentioned the TLD in a previous post. I checked helmetcity.com faq about ratings and it said snell was the highest. Looking into TLD site it shows their helmet exceeds snell m2000, m2005, dot and exe, whatever exe is. I use the TLD because the fit and weight are perfect for me, but I have always heard arai and shoei have the best helmets out there. Have you heard of TLD failures? Once you have reached the highest rating, can one helmet type far exceed another, wouldnt it then obtain another rating level? Why dont they just put 5 star impact ratings on helmets like cars then we dont have to research testing standards all day.....

Posted by: +30---------------------

oops sorry just noticed the threads over a year old.....anyway got a chance to wad it up over a 85fter with the tld, and i dont think i brained my damage.

Posted by: Chili---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by +30

got a chance to wad it up over a 85fter with the tld, and i dont think i brained my damage.

Posted by: CHR!S---------------------

i don't know if this was mentioned already, i couldn't get through the whole thread, but DOT certification is on the honesty of the manufacturer. it is up to them to test their helmet, whearas snell tests the helmet before certifying it.

just an interesting bit.

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