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Ring-free
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Posted by: BEAM-DRINKER---------------------

Hello i'm new here and am glad to have found you guys. I just got my 95 kdx 200 last week and in reading the site it seems that keeping the kips valve and stuff free of carbon seem's real important.My bike seems to run great but how do i know if it's carboned up or not? The previous owner did not know if the topend has ever been done so i inspected all the topend bolts to see if the were marred up from being apart before and it dosen't look like they have been tampered with. here is the question i have for you guys can you use ring-free in a can that they use in outboard motors to decarbon them? i have previous experience with this stuff and it works it blows big chunks of stuff out of them and being that it is also a 2 stroke why or why not should it be used? Also can you use outboard oil in your bike? what is the difference? thanks

Posted by: KDX1---------------------

Hey Beam,
I used to work in the marine industry and I am aware that OMC Engine Tuner is good stuff, but I have never tried it on my KDX. I am curious too like you. I may try some as I don't think there is much to lose. It can't hurt since there are no electronics like fuel injection. On ocasion I use outboard oil for my pre mix as I don't think it hurts. I am curious as to how good it works because the kdx motor like most 2 stroke dirtbike motors runs in the higher rpm range. I don't think it will hurt to run it on ocasion. Maybe someone else with more experience will chime in on this subject.

Posted by: John Harris---------------------

In the old days, it was important to run motorcycle two stroke oil and not marine two stroke oils in your motorcycle, because the operating temperatures were very different since the motorcycles were all air cooled. Now that they both are water cooled, I would expect that there is very little difference in the compositions of the oils.
Concensus on here is that if you run branded 100% synthetic motorcycle oils at 40 to one (or more depending on brand of oil and personal preference) and jetted pretty good you will have a clean kips when you open it up after about 2000 miles or more!
Seriously, KDXs run a long, long time before they need a top end. They run much further than is the case for other two strokes because of the KIPS valving. How far they run without a top end depends on lots of things--you can name and call most of them, but if you don't push too hard (and they will take a lot) maintain well and burn good oils and good as you can get gasoline--then you will be amazed at how long they will go--look for threads.
Ride safe--Cheers John

Posted by: StrokesX2---------------------

I bought my KDX from a friend. He has several jet skis and has always run Belray JS-1 at 40:1 in his jet skis, KDX and now his KTM. He has always had good luck with it, never fouled a plug and has very little seep from the exhaust.. I'm running Belray MC-1 and haven't had a problem either. Don't know if jet ski oil is equivalent to outboard oil, but would think it would be very close.

Posted by: BEAM-DRINKER---------------------

I am still curious to know if the ring free would be okay to use it's alot easier to do than tearing the topend down and cleaning it out.

Posted by: Tom L---------------------

Hey that reminds me!!! I saw a gallon of Full Synthetic Pennzoil Marine 2 stroke oil at Walmart for $20 !!! That's only $2.50 / pint !!! Compared to $3.50 / pint for Mobil 1 MX2T !!! That's by far the cheapest full synthetic 2 - stroke oil I've ever seen!!! It's full synthetic, so it has to be good!!! Only problem is you have to measure it out of the gallon jug. The pints were $3.19 each. For $0.31, I won't even bother trying it, cuz I'm too lazy to measure. I like to just dump a pint in a 5 gallon jug of gas and call it 40:1 !!! But if you don't mind measuring, you can save a buck!!!

Posted by: captbly99---------------------

Just FYI, I asked Fredette what he used and he uses Golden Spectro, the places around here don't sell that, so I asked him about Yamalube R2, which he said was good too.

Posted by: Green Hornet---------------------

Fredette runs 50:1 w/Golden Spectro. He told me to mix as per oil manufac recommendation

Posted by: Jackpiner57---------------------

I don't know about the ring-free, but I have to agree with Jeff Fredette about the Golden Spectro. I am doing my 1st top end after 3 years of use and when I pulled it apart everything looked great. I was surprised the KIPS was so clean. I didn't really even need to take it apart to clean it (but I did). I highly recommend Golden Spectro. I used it at 50:1 for the first two years and then went to 40:1 for the heck of it.

Posted by: Green Hornet---------------------

Jack-Why did you switch from 50:1 to 40:1. Any problems??

Posted by: Sunny State KDX---------------------

I'm guessing Jeff is using the synthetic Golden Spectro right?? I used to run the original GS back in late 80's and early 90's. Never seized a top end with that stuff but it would gum up power valves. I'm running my old favorite now which is Castor 927. Yeah Yeah I know it will build up mung like crazy but it's a known fact that Castor is still and will always be one of the best lubricants known to man for 2 cycle motors. It never let me down on my shifter kart and that CR motor rarely saw below 10,000rpms on the track

I figure I'm gonna run the 927 till my half gallon jug is empty then do the Weisco top end swap. After that I'm gonna go synthetic. Either Spectro or Castrol TTS.

Posted by: cicone---------------------

I used to run Golden Spectro in the 70's---most of the cooler dudes ran Belray, gotta love that smell. Haven't seen the Spectro available in my area, so running Motul 600/800 or Yamalube between 32 and 36:1. FWIW, I think the Golden Spectro was a good oil. Ran out of it in my oil injected Suzuki 185 on I-95 in south FL and seized at around 60 mph. I popped the clutch and it broke free. Drove the rest of the way home and refilled. No visible damage to the cylinder---guess I was lucky. Bike ran fine afterward. Go figure?

Posted by: Braahp---------------------

If you want the best for your bike then use Amsoil Dominator.

Posted by: Jackpiner57---------------------

Hornet, It was during the Red Fox Turkey Run in southern Vermont that we stopped for lunch at one of the host clubs shops. I was low on fuel, so the guys filled my tank with some premix they had mixed at 40:1 w/ Golden Spectro for their motocross bikes. What a good bunch of guys.

The bike ran great as usual and I figured I would mix at the same ratio for added protection. At 40:1 the mixture is a little leaner, and at the time I was using the stock jetting and running rich so it probably helped that situation a little.

From my experience, the 50:1 ratio was very good with excellent wear protection.

I've been running Golden Spectro since 1972 and have no reason to change to another brand.

Posted by: Woodsquest---------------------

...

Posted by: Green Hornet---------------------

Thanks JP-I know it is a LEANER mix, but RICHER on the oil,(as shown on plug) if that makes sense. It made sense to me when Jeff told me. Anyway thanks for answering. I was just wondering if there was a mechanical reason you changed.

Posted by: Jackpiner57---------------------

Hornet, you can run it 32:1 and it won't foul plugs if the bike is jetted for it.

Sunny State KDX, as far as I know there is only one Golden Spectro premix concentrate. It is a synthetic/petroleum blend. They recommend 42:1, 52:1 or 64:1

Posted by: Green Hornet---------------------

I'm running the full synthetic Rec. 52:1, 40:1 & 64:1 I'm going to change it to about 40:1 @ next fillup. Jeff said I should get rid of the little bit of Oil that is on the outside tip of the plug & then I'll go back to the BR8ES instead of the BR7ES & see how that works. Spectro recommends running @ 50:1 like Jeff. 40:1 is recommended under heavy load, & I like to play a little safe in regards to pre-mix. Even though that is riching the mixture I am leaning the oil. Boy this stuff is screwy how they define Rich & Lean

Posted by: nmilne---------------------

Any recommendations for premix ratio with Motul 800 on standard jetting? I usually run 32:1 on my KR-1S 250 track bike with no fouling problems, but its fairly much flat out all the time...

Posted by: Sunny State KDX---------------------

You can never go wrong with 32:1 if your ever in doubt. I've seen Motul used at 50:1 quite frequently as well.

Posted by: Jaybird---------------------

I used Golden Spectro for quite awhile myself. It is one of the gooyest oils you can use. Compared to MX2T it is a mess.

Castor is by far one of the best oils for 2-strokes known to man??? Where did you pick that up at?

Fredette told you he runs 50:1? If so, he isn't using enough oil.

Amazing the things you read in here.

Posted by: Sunny State KDX---------------------

Ask around the Kart racing circles where 2 cycle motors are run ten times as hard at higher and longer sustained RPM's. Just becuase your a Motocross Guy don't assume its the only engines that run pre-mix or get worked hard. Ask Eric Gorr if Castor oil isn't a great lube for 2 cycle motors.

Posted by: Green Hornet---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaybird

I used Golden Spectro for quite awhile myself. It is one of the gooyest oils you can use. Compared to MX2T it is a mess.

Castor is by far one of the best oils for 2-strokes known to man??? Where did you pick that up at?

Fredette told you he runs 50:1? If so, he isn't using enough oil.

Amazing the things you read in here.

He told me via phone he has been running for over 20yrs. Never had a problem. Different oils have different properties. Also SPECTRO OILS recommended 50:1 also

Posted by: Jaybird---------------------

When a bottle of oil knows what bike you are running and in what conditions, call and let me know.

There are three basic types of oil available for two cycle engines. Castor bean oil, organic petroleum, and synthetic petroleum. The difference in these three types are the additives that mfg's put in them.

There has been extensive testing done by loads of folks that all concludes there can be problems when going with less oil than ~32:1.
Also testing shows that performance gains (not to mention added protection) can be had with increased amounts of oil, up to ~16-18:1 ratio.
Knowing these facts I chose to use what is tried and tested, and leave the blanket bottle recommendations on the bottle.

Castor oil is a good lubricant, but to say it's the best stuff known to man is way overstating things.
Synthetic base stock blows it away as far as performance and longevity. Castor does smell good though.

Posted by: dirt bike dave---------------------

Personally, I think 32:1 or even 24:1 is great for a radically tuned 125 MXer. But the KDX is a mildly tuned trail engine. While we may abuse our bikes on occassion, they are not stressed nearly to the level of a pro MX bike.

Enough people (Fredette included) have successfully run 40:1 to 50:1 for so many years in KDXs, it has been well 'tried and tested'.

I owned three KDX's for about 17 years and usually mixed 12 ounces of Maxima Super M with 4 gallons of fuel, for about 43:1. My most frequent riding partner (A enduro racer) also had 3 kdxs and mixed Golden Spectro at 50:1. Other friends also had KDXs and mixed in excess of 40:1 for years. No engine or power valve failures in thousands of miles of use.

Posted by: Sunny State KDX---------------------

BTW jaybird thanks for misqutoing me

Thats as bad as a news crew chopping up what you say on camera for effect. I never said Castor was "THE best" I said it's "ONE of the Best".

And since you asked where I picked up on how good Castor is you ever heard of Swedetech?? Doubt it, but they are THE BEST Shifter Kart motor builders in the country. I've owned 2 of there CR125's and one ICC motor and they suggest but don't spec Castor based oils for there motors. The testing they have done in house on there race motors the Castor based oils film had the highest threshold before it broke down under extreme load.

I also believe that the advances made in synthetics in the past 10 years make them very worthwhile products as well. Hence why I'm gonna give a synthetic a shot when I run out of my 927 and rebuild the top end. I don't dog my KDX one 10th as hard as I ran my Karts. LOL

Posted by: Green Hornet---------------------

I guess the manufactuer does'nt know what there talking about, Huh JB

Call Fredette and ask him, then maybe you wo'nt be amazed at what you read

Posted by: Jaybird---------------------

SS KDX, I am sorry if I misquoted...-I was actually paraphrasing and should have made that obvious.

I'm not dogging anyones method. What we chose to do is our business anyway.
I'm only saying that there are reasons to run with more oil. The only reason not to, of any importance, would be to save coin.

More oil not only provides a better seal at the ring, but helps to coat the outside of the parts that do not have a friction surface. Winter riding where the bike sees hot and cold frequently, as well as riding in alot of water, can lead to rusty cranks, rods, etc...within the motor. Where there is rust, there is iron oxide (an abrasive) waiting to contaminate a friction point.

The KDX motor has always been a stable smooth band motor. But it sees the rigors of what a MX bike would. Often times making as many revs in it's life as it's track counterpart.
(lol...I'm sure that some have never experienced this, but some actually ride their KDX's)

Wear is wear, and if we can help rid of it, and provide more power at the same time, why would we not?
I remember...to save a bit of money. Cost of oil vs Cost of parts.... (shrug)

40:1 probably is sufficient for the majority of woods/trail type riders, with probably any of the major oil brands. Sure, you'll get some Amsoil salesman to convince you that you can run at 100:1 with no problems, and you may well be fine, but you definately comprimise the engines performance. They probably do have additives in the oil that will protect at the point past the film being penetrated, but they are not providing a good ring seal with 100:1 wonder oils. And it only stands to reason that with far less oil, you get far less coating protection internally.

Since only about a million people have trashed chain saw, boat, and bike motors and such trying these different ratios out, and all come up with very close to the same conclusions..I think that I will stay with the more oil way of thinking for now...unless someone can show me why not?

And NO, the oil manufacturers are not taking all these items into consideration...so NO, they don't know what they are talking about. But ask them...they love us more oil guys far more than you chincy Amsoil guys.

( lol...Amsoil is just glad that there are still fish in the pond! )

Posted by: Sunny State KDX---------------------

good points Jaybird. I will go on to note that Swedetech told me to be truly safe use 5 ozs. per gallon. I think that works out to 26 to 1. I keep forgeting to check it on my ratio rite.

Posted by: John Harris---------------------

Unless I have missed it nobody has mentioned the KDX powervalve (KIPS) in this discussion. I think it may be somewhat unique in the overall world of two stroke engines. The oil in the KDX fuel mixture not only lubes the engine, but lubes the KIPS as well and hopefully does not gum it up. Most riders have found that 40 to one mixture of all synthetic oil does the overall job best on the KDX. Now I know that there are people on the fringes of the bell curve that may add road tar at 10 to one and those that use kerosene as oil at 100 to 1 but the peak of the bell curve of users will show about 40 to 1 all synthetic oil. It is your bike - treat it like you want and repair it when you will. Cheers John

Posted by: Rich Rohrich---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunny State KDX

Ask Eric Gorr if Castor oil isn't a great lube for 2 cycle motors.

I walked into the back of the shop and did just that. This was Eric's response

There was a time when castor based oils were the best option. Those days are long gone.

Posted by: Sunny State KDX---------------------

Another reason I want to try synthetics. On our CR 125 Kart motors we diasable the power vales with blank plugs and port aournd them to match. Didn't need to worry about no Stinking Valves getting gummy. LOL same thing with all the Jet Skis we used to tune on and race.

Now that I'm back to dirt bikes with power valves again it time to try something that won't gum up as bad. I pulled the left side KIPS cover off ( I believe that it just a pressure relief chamber) and man was there some spooge in there LOL. I can only imagine what the front valves look like.

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