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Were have all the shims gone?

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Posted by: tx246---------------------

yall,

i know this is a stupid question but i really have used the search function to no avail. where are all of the shims/midvalve located in the fork? im talking about TC showas off a 00cr250. ive taken the forks apart as far as the manual goes. this will get a seal job done but thats it. from info gathered here, it seems high speed compression is too stiff. ive backed the compression clickers all the way and noticed no difference at all. it seems on hardedged ie rocks, the suspension doesnt react at all. i know im not going to get it perfect do it all performance but would like the clickers to move and me be able to tell a difference.

ive had this bike for three years and after this last trip to moab, im sick of tired of getting hammered by the forks. i ride 80woods20mx. this is the first bike ive ever had that i couldnt bottom the fork. that is great for the wrists but thats about it. with gear im 200 and have the sag set where the bike handles great. when forks were apart last time, the cartridge on both forks reacted fine after refilling and bleeding them.

thanks for reading


Posted by: Miedosoracing---------------------

They are on the inside, inside that actual cartridge you filled and bled. They are at the end of the rod that you pull out.


Posted by: tx246---------------------

so i take off the locating nut off the shaft, wrap the threads in teflon, and pull it back through the cartridge?

what of the shaft with the short spring under the compression clicker? right after the bushings there is something that resembles a shim assembly.

thanks for getting me started.


Posted by: WhiPit---------------------

You don't need to wrap the threads in teflon....just push the rod through. And "yes", the shaft with the short spring is where your compression valving is located.


Posted by: KTM-Lew---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiPit
You don't need to wrap the threads in teflon....just push the rod through. And "yes", the shaft with the short spring is where your compression valving is located.


You don't need to wrap the threads on dissassembly but you do when reassembling them. If you don't tape it you will destroy the seal in the top of the cartridge when pushing the rod thru. Try mx-tech's site for an instruction sheet on dissasembly. They are in the download section.


Posted by: tx246---------------------

ok, so if i want to adjust the high speed compression, do i leave the stuff in the cartridge alone? ive been to mxtech's site and i guess a TC is a TC for illustration purposes. what i really need is a good diagram with labeling.

i am a rookie at this but i am determined.


Posted by: KTM-Lew---------------------

I'll do some digging. Hang in there.....


Posted by: KTM-Lew---------------------

With the rules on this board i'm not going to be able to link anything that will help.


Don't worry about the mid-valve to start. You need to learn the basics first and concenrate on the base-valve. Pull the comp assembly out of the top and remove the base-valve and shims. Post the comp stack and we will make suggestions from there like removing some of the odd high-speed shims or something like that. You will have to remove the peening from the end of the shaft before you remove the nut!


Posted by: WhiPit---------------------

Sorry Lew.....I do about 5-6 sets of Showa TC's per day (in the busy season) and I've never used teflon tape and I've never torn a seal.

tx - what makes you think you need to remove high speed compression?


Posted by: tx246---------------------

the forks are great for trails that have little in the way of bumps in the form of roots/rocks. when i hit them, the fork jars. sometimes it just deflects. after riding a rocky trail, i would swear that i have no suspension up front unless you count my arms doing all of the moving. on the track it performs fine but i still know im not using all of the suspension because ive put tiewraps to see the amount of travel i have not used. i recently got back from moab and it is all rock. lots of em are sharp edged. trail speed at moab was 15-18mph and it was like riding a jackhammer. i started watching the front wheel and there was very little movement on impact. this was with clickers all the way out(compression). i also did some time on my dualsport xt and if i kept it reasonable, it was like riding a sofa on the rocks.

i did ride it in the desert for the first time this spring and it was great in the sand. we rode at high speeds and encountered very little in the way of rock.

i know i cant get it perfect for all terrain but i feel like im riding an sx bike. it would be great if i could soften it up so that the i can tell something happens when i turn the clickers.

thanks for yalls input.


Posted by: KTM-Lew---------------------

WhiPit

So how do you get the rod past the seal? Just ram it thru? When coming out the seal lip is being dragged along the rod in an "unloaded" direction. When putting the rod back in the seal lip is going to be pushed against the shoulder on the rod at the threads. Can't be good for it.

Guess maybe Jeremy is wrong? Just been following instructions!


Posted by: Miedosoracing---------------------

I've never used any type of teflon tape for my cart???? All there is, is an o-ring, that holds the oil in. I am not sure what you are referring to.

Ohhhh, wait a minute. I think we have lines crossed here. Yes, when replacing your seals, use a teflon tape or plastic bag to put on the new seals. That will keep your seals from getting ripped or cut by the grove of the bushings. Buttttttt, to do Honda forks, you don't even need to go there. Just take out the top inside bolt. That is the compression assembly. You just take that out, and don't take the rest of the fork apart.


Posted by: Miedosoracing---------------------

as far as what I did on my Honda 00 250 for my first time reshimming it, I just took out the seperater shim in the middle of the stack, and it made a world of difference. I don't do 2 stage stacks.


Posted by: KTM-Lew---------------------

Guess you can do it how you want. I'll keep using the teflon tape for assembly of the rod to the cartridge. I've never "opened" the cartridge to see what type of construction the seal has though. Maybe it is an oring but it doesn't matter to me. Still don't want to chance damaging it.


Posted by: jrgreene1968---------------------

i agree with KTM Lew, ive always used teflon, the thought of threads being pulled across a seal cant be good, and no longer than it takes better safe than sorry


Posted by: Miedosoracing---------------------

Like I said, you have no need to take the rod from the cartridge. I think that is where our lines are crossing. The rod and the cartridge can stay in tact. You just take the inside out of the cartridge. You never need to get down to the rod of you are just reshimming... Only if you are gonna fool with the spring, seals etc. Not the valving for the compression assembly.


Posted by: KTM-Lew---------------------

Please read the thread from the top! He asked about removing the rod from the cartridge! While that may not be exactly where he needs to start it was his question. It will need some mid-valve mods to make it right and he will have to completely disassemble the cartridge for that. He should start with removing some high-speed from the base-valve first though. For serious rocks he could stand to go lighter on the springs too but the last one I did I pulled out a bunch of high-speed and the 155lb rider was very happy with that. Said now the shock sucks LOL!


Posted by: James---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miedosoracing
Like I said, you have no need to take the rod from the cartridge. I think that is where our lines are crossing. The rod and the cartridge can stay in tact. You just take the inside out of the cartridge. You never need to get down to the rod of you are just reshimming... Only if you are gonna fool with the spring, seals etc. Not the valving for the compression assembly.
You don't need to disassemble (remove the rod from) the cartridge for springs or seals either. Only to change the mid-valve and rebound shims.

Maybe you are talking about removing the cartridge from the lower fork tube? There is an Oring on the rebound adjuster, but there is a high pressure bushing/seal on the cartridge rod.

Also, I have never used teflon tape for re-installing seals or the cartridge rod and have only used a plastic bag to re-install seals on a couple other peoples forks for added precaution. If you are careful and take your time, you won't tear anything.


Posted by: James---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miedosoracing
as far as what I did on my Honda 00 250 for my first time reshimming it, I just took out the seperater shim in the middle of the stack, and it made a world of difference. I don't do 2 stage stacks.
Which shim is the "separator" shim on the compression stack in the 2000 CR250 fork?


Posted by: James---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by tx246
yall,

i know this is a stupid question but i really have used the search function to no avail. where are all of the shims/midvalve located in the fork? im talking about TC showas off a 00cr250. ive taken the forks apart as far as the manual goes. this will get a seal job done but thats it. from info gathered here, it seems high speed compression is too stiff. ive backed the compression clickers all the way and noticed no difference at all. it seems on hardedged ie rocks, the suspension doesnt react at all. i know im not going to get it perfect do it all performance but would like the clickers to move and me be able to tell a difference.

ive had this bike for three years and after this last trip to moab, im sick of tired of getting hammered by the forks. i ride 80woods20mx. this is the first bike ive ever had that i couldnt bottom the fork. that is great for the wrists but thats about it. with gear im 200 and have the sag set where the bike handles great. when forks were apart last time, the cartridge on both forks reacted fine after refilling and bleeding them.

thanks for reading
Does it have the stock springs? What oil level are you running? Before you change the valving, I'd recommend that you run the minimum and see what that does for you. I don't have the manual but I think that is around 320ccs or about 11.? ounces. At 200lbs, those forks should be able to get full travel without modding the stacks.

Also, did you check to see if the axle was binding?? Is your axle flush with the axle clamp on the right (non-brake) side?


Posted by: Miedosoracing---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by James
Which shim is the "separator" shim on the compression stack in the 2000 CR250 fork?

Mine had a seperater shim, small 12 I think it was, right in the middle. I figured it was stock, because the bolt was piend on still from factory, unless someone changed it, and repiend it. As far as the other stuff, I was getting confused on what they were wanting to get too. I thought they only wanted the compression stack, so I was thinking they were talking about the rubber oring on the top. My bad. I did not use teflon tape when I put my rod back to my cartridge. Maybe next time I will. I didn't know I needed to on that. Thanks


Posted by: tx246---------------------

stock springs and lowest oil level recommended. axle flush on the non rotor side, pinch bolts to spec too. ill take apart the compression stack this weekend and post results.


Posted by: James---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miedosoracing
Mine had a seperater shim, small 12 I think it was, right in the middle. I figured it was stock, because the bolt was piend on still from factory, unless someone changed it, and repiend it.
Interesting. All of the 250s I have seen have gone 9,10,11,12,13,14,15,etc. Single stack and progressive. I would guess it wasn't stock but curious indeed.


Posted by: WhiPit---------------------

Lew,
I put grease over the threads and , yeah - "just ram it through". I'm not saying Mr. Wilkey is wrong......I respect his opinion very highly. However, I'd rather have grease on my cartridge seal than possibly a piece of teflon tape that got stuck as it was rammed past the seal. Or, the tape rolling up and damaging the seal as the rod get rammed through.

To each his own. I'd just rather not waste time and teflon tape. My way works like a charm every time.


Posted by: JTT---------------------

Must admit, I've always done it WhiPit's way too...just a bit of grease on the threads and pop her in. Never had any trouble.

tx246, I think it wise to take the forks down anyways. Something doesn't sound right if they are that hard. I'm about your weight, and although my old 2000 CR250 forks were a little stiff in the woods, they definitely moved. In fact, I always ran heavier springs as well, as the stock ones were too light and made the fork ride low (and feel more harsh again).


Posted by: darringer---------------------

I agree with JTT, I have a set of 2000 forks on my 99 and I have gone one step heavier on the springs. I ride about 75% trails and 25% track. The forks are fairly plush and I weigh about 170 in gear. Even though I don't get big air, I still bottom the forks occasionally on the track. I would think at 200lbs, yours would bottom even more frequently. I am in the process of re-valving the compression for a bit more cush on the trails. I generally run the clickers near the middle of their range. After switching to heavier springs, the forks ride noticeably higher in the stroke and are more plush as a result.


Posted by: tx246---------------------

ok, ive measured the shims (with a standard caliper so the measurements are converted) and list them in order from the top to the bottom.

16x6x.3 6qty
9x6x.2
10x6x.1
11x6x.1
12x6x.1
13x6x.1
14x6x.1
15x6x.1
17x6x.1
18x6x.1
19x6x.1
20x6x.1
valve
20x8x.3
spacer
spring
cup

about springs. the bike had heavier springs in it when i got it. i bought it from mx547 on this board. he is a faster, heavier rider that used the bike for motocross exclusively. i put in the stock springs and they made little difference in the way the front end felt. the stock rear felt much better and i could set the sag correctly.

why all of the same size/thickness for the first six? are they there to take up room in the stack?
as i dont have a degree in fluid dynamics, im sure there are some rules of thumb that are in place.

do you reduce the overall diameter of the stack to promote fluid movement?
do you introduce slack in the stack to promote shim bending to promote fluid movement?

im open to learning


Posted by: KTM-Lew---------------------

Remove the 11, 13, 15 & 19 and see if you like it.


Posted by: WhiPit---------------------

Lew has a good idea with his suggestion. Start there. Also, those first 6 shims (.30mm thick) are just spacers - they do nothing but take up room as you thought.


Posted by: tx246---------------------

sounds like a plan. im going to be out of pocket for awhile but will update after completed. thanks again for all of yalls input.


Posted by: tx246---------------------

KTM Lew should be CR Lew. man i finally got the thing back together and took it out this weekend. what a difference!!! i was running over crap on purpose to see if i could get it to deflect. never did. on rocky portions of the trail, i took the roughest line i could find. it was awesome! like floating. my arms thank you in the biggest way. . i was afraid i was going to get a pinch flat on the front tire because i was slamming into stuff. good times. i was afraid the front would get wallowy but it didnt. i cant wait to take it to the track. i think braking bumps will be much better with this set up.

again thank all of you for helping a rookie like me.



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