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Honda CRF Survey
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Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Anyone else get this?
Question of interest:

Quote:

How interested would you be if a motorcycle manufacturer were to offer a fuel injection system that is cleaner burning, more fuel efficient than your carburetor, provides better starting, and has equal or better throttle response at no additional cost but adds 5 lbs. to the total weight of the motorcycle? Engine modifications that typically require carburetor rejetting (e.g., aftermarket exhaust) would require the purchase of an additional device to recalibrate the fuel injection system.

Posted by: R007GHST---------------------

it sounds like they are trying to sell ya somthing, that would cost you money and trying to make it sounds good.

Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Uh.. that's not really where they are going with it.

Posted by: Moto Squid---------------------

Until a batteryless EFI can be made to work better then my carb gimme a handfull of jets and let me be

The added 5 pounds of weight would make me not want it. No more weight and have it so that it can be adjusted with my laptop and I'd be all for it!

Posted by: bedell99---------------------

I would take it in aheartbeat but only if it was simple to work on.

Erik

Posted by: Patman---------------------

5 pounds is nothing for a REAL workable system, and if it's from Honda it should work very well. The only part I'd be a little sketchy on is the "additional device" cost. If it was a $300 box that only worked on that model then no.

Posted by: Farmer John---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patman

I'd be a little sketchy on is the "additional device" cost. If it was a $300 box that only worked on that model then no.

Take a look at what Power Commanders & Techclusion boxes cost for EFI street bikes.

If Honda were to produce a EFI version of the 450 & kept the dry weight around 215/220lbs I would probably buy one.

Posted by: YZ165---------------------

Tough call. I can't see Honda releasing a FI system that cannot self adjust for altitude. If it can do that, then it should be able to handle a pipe or air filter change. Lets hope so. As long it can do that, I'd be ok with one. YZ165

Posted by: ellandoh---------------------

if they play their cards right , i dont know if i could deny the darkside with the allure of a bike thats always dialed in

Posted by: BEEF706---------------------

I would definite be up for it! That way I wouldn't get all paranoid about running too lean if I was going someplace say like OK

Posted by: bpositive---------------------

i wonder if it could be programed digitally from a laptop.. or from a replacement chip

eitherway my issue would be the weight..

Posted by: SFO---------------------

Is this a trick question?
Oh, BTW, I'll take mine with a 48mm throttle body...

Posted by: cnielse5---------------------

comming from an automotive background, it sounds like this question is talking about a very basic FI system that has no MAP or MAF if it can not adjust to altitude, ans airflow changes. If this is the case then I say forget it especially at the cost of 5 lbs.
now if it was a basic speed/density system and it only added like 1-2 lbs then I might think about it. (still have to accept the 4 stroke)

Posted by: TemeculaTim---------------------

I would love to see the next version XR 650 come out with Fuel Injection, AND electric start.

Posted by: cnielse5---------------------

will there be a next generation xr 650?

Posted by: moore_716---------------------

That would be cool especially if it could also fix the valves.

Posted by: Hick---------------------

Pretty happy w/ my carb (and a handful of brass since I rejet everything for my 4,500 alt.)

What I'm curious about is how they will address the tip-over switch issue. Will they have one, or will the bikes run forever while laying on their side (not a good feature either)?

Mebbee they could have a "smart" tip-over and run for, say, 15 seconds and then shut off...

I've ridden a few sport bikes w/ EFI and quite a few of them have noticeable rough spots in their power delivery. I'd be more concerned about how well they work than the extra 5 lbs.

My two cents.

Posted by: Uchytil---------------------

[QUOTE=cnielse5]comming from an automotive background, it sounds like this question is talking about a very basic FI system that has no MAP or MAF if it can not adjust to altitude, ans airflow changes.QUOTE] Should not be a huge problem. I work on outboards, Yams have all that and some more. Granted there are more cylinders and weight, however, the ECU can be programmed for any/all sensors that can be thrown their way. It would also be cool to have diagnostic software like I have for outboards. Honda just came out with thier software which works from a PDA.

Posted by: bclapham---------------------

i can hear it now......"oh it handles much better than my old 4-stroke, and i can ride it for more than 3 laps before i am tired."

Posted by: biglou---------------------

Your crap is getting really played out Bruce. From now on, I'll just start nuking posts.

Posted by: ChopperDave---------------------

The extra weight isn't so bad since I could stand to lose 20lbs myself.

If it coud be tuned without having to disassemble the entire bike, I would be cool with that.

Posted by: CaptainObvious---------------------

FI would be a welcome advancement for dirtbikes. Fuel injection for street bikes has come a long way in the last few years. When it was first introduced, on/off throttle transitions were a real problem. So was surging. The last few fuel injected street bikes I have ridden ('05 CBR600, '05 VFR800, '05 GSXR1000) all had perfect FI.

From my understanding, the issues for FI in a dirt environment have been:

1. Dirt - it is the "kiss-of-death" of FI systems. How will the FI system be insulated from this environment?
2. Electrical Output - The electrical output on a dirtbike is not consistent. This requires a lot of components that we currently do not carry. This could be where the "5 pounds" comes from.
3. Start Mode - if the system is being designed without a battery, what will power the ECU? Ever tried to push-start a modern automobile with a dead battery?

Hick mentioned a tip-over feature that I never even thought of. I'm sure there are many other issues that the smart engineers at Honda have thought of. If anyone can perfect FI for dirtbikes, it's Honda.

I say "bring it!"

Posted by: bclapham---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by biglou

Your crap is getting really played out Bruce. From now on, I'll just start nuking posts.

LOL- nothing is more played than the superiority of the 4-banger we all keep hearing.thing is, all i see is people spending more $$$$$ and telling themselves the riding expereince is so much better.

Right now in SoCal, the cheapest CRF450 from the dealers is $7K OTD. Add FI to that, and it goes to $7500. Two things then happen, it either works and the next season all bikes have them and cost $7500, or it doesnt work and loyal owners will have to stick with it until it does. Where does it all end?

All we hear about these days, is all this technology BS, Honda make a stupid ass looking bike with twin pipes and say it handles better (yeah right), but with all this technology, no one can make these things quiet? I know of one track that closed due to noise, and i know others that have issues with it.

With no disrespect to Dave, i find it really ironic that someone with a background riding v-twins doenst mind yet extra weight being added to their bikes.

Anyhow, i digress

Lou, (or any other mod for that matter) if you want to start nuking my posts, then please go ahead, but if you do, make sure you just delete my account and have done with it.

That way, i can at least join the long list of people that gave great input to this site over the years but dont post anymore. Plus, Okies blood pressure could do with a break.

Posted by: bedell99---------------------

Bruce I disagree with you on this one. The reason is Yamaha and Honda already have working FI on 2 off road vehicles. The Rapator 700 quad and the Montessa trials bike. I was looking at the rapator in the dealership a couple of days ago and the throttle body was actually smaller than a carb. Now I can't tell you how much better it will work and if there are going to be bugs, but I can tell you that this will be the future. I only wish that it would be installed in a 2 stroke where jetting is much harder and I think the benefits would be more. I say if the 4 stroke people want to pay for it let them. I like new technology of it works and I think when they do release it will be done right.

Erik

Posted by: bclapham---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by bedell99

I like new technology of it works and I think when they do release it will be done right.

Erik

thats the problem Erik...it might weigh more, it might weigh less. Will it be cool, certainly.... will be be reliable? maybe, maybe not....Will it cost more? definately.

Posted by: Patman---------------------

Cool! So Bruce has seen the light? Your going to love the air & oil cooled world of XR's & TTR's & old Maicos. No radiators to mash, no hoses to leak, impeller seals to go out. Good stuff for sure!

Posted by: Ol'89r---------------------

Whats-a-matter Bruce. Still gettin' smoked by those nasty thumpers??

Posted by: bclapham---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ol'89r

Whats-a-matter Bruce. Still gettin' smoked by those nasty thumpers?? :

nope, ive essentially quit racing since moving out here - i cant be bothered to get out of bed at 3am to make it to the races for 6am sign ups!!!....so like most people around here everyone wins practise.

Posted by: XRpredator---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by bclapham

ive essentially quit racing

quitter

Quote:

Originally Posted by bclapham

. . . around here everyone wins practise.

around here everyone can spell practice.

". . . but I still . . . love technology . . ."

Posted by: bclapham---------------------

hey Terry- i forgot to say- did you ever ride starwest??? sounds like they are having issues with all the noise. thats another one to cross off the list.

Posted by: bclapham---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRpredator

quitter

around here everyone can spell practice.

". . . but I still . . . love technology . . ."

so come on Mr Mensa, is that the best youve got? Its funny how i take one weekend off riding, and this is the most action this place has had in weeks.....why arent you guys out riding, instead of sitting on yer arses BSing about it?

anyhow, it seems ive created enough trouble for one day...please go back to your EFI discussion and how great life will be when you have to sit for hours down the local honda dealer for some kid to figure out the EFI error codes. IMO thats a potential reality.....technology is great, but sometimes simplicy is brilliant.

Posted by: Ol'89r---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by bclapham

hey Terry- i forgot to say- did you ever ride starwest??? sounds like they are having issues with all the noise. thats another one to cross off the list.

We knew that would happen when they built all the new houses right across the street from the track. It's like people that move next to an airport and then complain about the noise from the airplanes.

I don't think they will close it though. The 1/2 mile is there and now a drag strip has been added. And if they do, we still have Glen Helen, Perris, Elsinore and many more tracks to choose from.

Ho hum. Just another day in paradise.

Or is that paradice.

Posted by: biglou---------------------

Bruce, without itemizing a list here, I find you a completely pompous, condescending, crap-dredging a$$hole online. Confoundingly, this is the exact opposite of who you are in person. I don't get it.

Posted by: bclapham---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ol'89r

Ho hum. Just another day in paradise.

Or is that paradice.

LOL!

The star west thing really sucks, apparently there is more too it- sounds like the proper disclosures wernt made. I am sure the realtors didnt use it as one of their selling points either.

Posted by: bclapham---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by biglou

Bruce, without itemizing a list here, I find you a completely pompous, condescending, crap-dredging a$$hole online. Confoundingly, this is the exact opposite of who you are in person. I don't get it.

LOL Lou, i should have gone riding today.

Whoever has their finger on the button, just delete my account.... the mischeivious part of me cant help itsself.

Posted by: rickyd---------------------

I'd be interested in FI if it added no extra costs (like was stated in the questionaire) and only added 5lbs.. Would i buy first year?? No

Posted by: Patman---------------------

I'm not riding this weekend even though my bikes are not FI'ed and generating no codes because,.... well because I'm prepping bikes and gear for DIRTWEEK!

Posted by: truespode---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by bclapham

the mischeivious part of me cant help itsself.

Maybe you just need some Troll House Cookies...

Ingredients :

1 cup butter (two sticks)
1/2 cup brown sugar
1 cup granulated sugar
2 x eggs
1 tsp vanilla (Cook's vanilla powder is great)
1 1/2 cup brown rice flour
1/2 cup potato flour (NOT potato starch flour)
1 tsp baking soda
1 tsp salt
1 pkt milk or semisweet chocolate chips

Method :

* Cream butter (can use dairy-free margarine or Crisco if necessary), sugars, eggs and vanilla. Mix in dry ingredients, then chocolate chips. Drop by rounded teaspoons onto un-greased cookie sheet. Flatten very slightly with fork. Bake between 350-375 degrees for 12 minutes or so temperature and time vary by individual oven - if yours bakes hot, use the lower temperature). Remove from oven when lightly browned (they over-brown very quickly). Remove to cooling rack after a few minutes.

Posted by: Thump---------------------

Nice Ivan... I've been looking for that one.

Posted by: XRpredator---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by bclapham

why arent you guys out riding, instead of sitting on yer arses BSing about it?

checkin' my email for some campaign stuff. Plus, it rained. When it rains here, you DON'T go. But next weekend should be killer

Posted by: bclapham---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRpredator

checkin' my email for some campaign stuff. Plus, it rained. When it rains here, you DON'T go. But next weekend should be killer

why not??? it peed down last week in Indiana, but the sand was sweet.

thanks for the cooking tip Truespode.....the devil will find work for idle hands to do.

Posted by: XRpredator---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by bclapham

why not??? it peed down last week in Indiana, but the sand was sweet.

we have no such thing as sand . . .

Posted by: Ol'89r---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by bclapham

LOL!
The star west thing really sucks, apparently there is more too it- sounds like the proper disclosures wernt made. I am sure the realtors didnt use it as one of their selling points either.

Bruce.

I would think that would be an issue between the sellers and the buyers. It's not like the buyers didn't see the facility sitting there or hear the bikes or the carts and sprint cars on their way to the sales office. They are doing the same thing right next to my neighborhood. They are selling $ 1.4M to $ 1.8M homes, most of which overlook the factory test tracks. I seriously doubt that they are telling the buyers about the tracks. Makes me wonder how long the test tracks will be here.

Before we get too far off topic, I think that FI is the most logical next step. We already have black boxes, throttle position sensors and most of the components needed to run FI. Add a charging system, battery or some type of capacitor and oxy sensor and it would be pretty simple to integrate FI into the system.

Most of the cars we drive use computerized injection. It has increased performance, gas mileage and reliability. Most of these vehicles will go way over 100,000 miles with out any problems. Would you want to go back to the days of flooding carburetors, dirty and burnt ignition points and failing condensers and all of that other fun stuff that had to be replaced or worked on every 20-30,000 miles. I can remember when they started using electronic ignition systems. Everyone complained that they couldn't trouble shoot and fix the new systems. Well, after a few years the new systems didn't need fixing because they didn't fail.

Technology is a wonderful thing and yes, in answer to Senior' OkieJuan's question, I would buy one.

Rich. Don't forget. Bruce comes from the same country as Joe Lucas.

Posted by: Mully---------------------

The magazines (for what it's worth) have been talking up the Gas Gas EFI's. Maybe it is a viable option. Who knows??

Mully

Posted by: Rich Rohrich---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ol'89r

Rich. Don't forget. Bruce comes from the same country as Joe Lucas.

Terry - That reminds me of my all time favorite quote:
If Lucas made weapons there would be no wars.

The new EFI system being used by HRC on the Montesa four-stroke trials bike is a battery-less system made by Keihn. I've seen some basic information about the system and it really looks slick. I sent a note to Martin Belair of Montesa asking for some additional technical info. I'll pass along anything interesting he sends.

Posted by: Farmer John---------------------

fwiw, my Cannondale had numerous problems, but the EFI was kinda the best part of that package. The electrical problems were, for the most part, teething issues that any company with deep r&d pockets could sort fairly quickly. I have always felt that if the MX400 was built by Honda or Yamaha it would now be the dominant bike in it's field & we would all have switched to EFI 4T's by now.

btw, why do the British drink warm beer?

Lucas refrigerators.

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Honda CRF Survey

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