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What is the grail?
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Posted by: Jeremy Wilkey---------------------

The question is then: What is your opinion of modern suspension design theory of the different manufactures. What do you think (Showa) is attempting to do with its current designs and how are they hitting their objectives.

I've been really spending a lot of time pulling my thoughts back into a homogenous substance after some time of vacillating between the margins in the name of research and question finding. For a while the pursuit left me feeling a little lost in my own space. This has functionally led me to quantifying what I currently view as my theory of suspension and design objectives.

The industry has been functioning at a genius level really, but I think they are solving the wrong problems, so when we ask why or how can they spend all that money and be so smart in the engineering, yet still have huge issues, the answer is they have done a brilliant job however the solution they provided is really solving some objective that does not fit the real problem.

Posted by: lemons r yellow---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy Wilkey

The industry has been functioning at a genius level really, but I think they are solving the wrong problems, so when we ask why or how can they spend all that money and be so smart in the engineering, yet still have huge issues, the answer is they have done a brilliant job however the solution they provided is really solving some objective that does not fit the real problem.

The way I see it marketing is over riding development when you discuss engineers addressing the wrong problems.
I work for a large company and marketing drives everything... good ideas and bad.
Who is going to be the first to step outside the box and can we still make money if we do?
In a perfect world I want a set of suspenders that can read the terrain and be proactive vs reactive!

lets

Posted by: Chili---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy Wilkey

I've been really spending a lot of time pulling my thoughts back into a homogenous substance after some time of vacillating between the margins in the name of research and question finding. For a while the pursuit left me feeling a little lost in my own space. This has functionally led me to quantifying what I currently view as my theory of suspension and design objectives.

I'll get back to you as soon as I'm done at dictionary.com

Posted by: KTM-Lew---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

I'll get back to you as soon as I'm done at dictionary.com

Yep! That was alot of typing to say nothing!

Posted by: dales298---------------------

He's talking about marketing practices and the factor used in most decisions, will we make money with this or loose money (and our jobs).

Posted by: Jeremy Wilkey---------------------

So marketing is a major influence and I would sight several major decisions by the OEMs that reflect marketing. Here are some interesting ones.

USD Forks: where a marketing driven change. The USD fork has distinct advantages however it was not a technology that was ripe when they picked it.

Midvalves: where first used in Showa forks in 92 with the BCV.. (Bending Check Valve) When KYB introduced there version on the 95’s the design was neutered. It did not matter at all what was in it as it had so much lift it had no impact on the damping coefficient.

What are some others?

I was going another direction on this string guys but we could talk about marketing if you want to. I was going with what is the design goal. Showa seems more directed towards Digressive valing for instance.

What are they attempting to accomplish?

In the 05 model year KYB was going with an AOSS fork and in 06 went with the speed sensitive fork. Well isn’t all modern forks speed sensitive? Wasn’t the 05 speed sensitive? It was but it also had a viscous damping component to it. What would be the advantage of such a system?

Examining these types of questions gets us to the point of conversations I was trying to make faster but I was hoping this could turn into something else anyway.

Posted by: KTM-Lew---------------------

Jer?

How did the 05 Yamaha design compare to the 98RM Showa's? They seem similar to me?

Posted by: mxneagle---------------------

Not sure if you looking for technology or behavior ideas but I'm thinking you need to define what the "Holy Grail" behavior would be before you even think of tossing around technology ideas. Here's my $0.02 on behavior, or more exactly what my problem is with current behavior. I like my bike to handle the big nasty rough stuff and hard landings without bouncing off or bottoming excessivly. However, when I set my bike up to handle this when I'm fresh and riding really aggressively it kills me after a few laps when I start to get tired. (I know, get in shape

) Once that happens I need the suspension to change and get softer based on my reduced ability to attack the bumps. I guess what I'm getting around to is something like adaptive suspension based on how the bike is being ridden. I know they do similar things in cars right now (esp. with engine settings)

Posted by: lemons r yellow---------------------

not sure what the differences are
But I get the impression Yamaha was going after better turning and handling with regards to position.
At least it would apear that way with the lack of preload in 05!

Posted by: chrismxer---------------------

That brings up a good question on KYB's manufacturing process. Jeremy do you have any insight into this??

My 04 YZ250f had too short of springs and so did the 05's. My 06 YZ was fine on the springs but the valving makes me question if they have a sweat shop with kids working in the KYB factory. The only thing I can think of is they finalized there valving specs on a dyno instead of riders input?? The 05 specs were a real gem!! The springs would let you hang down in the travel witch is not good then throw in a position sensitive element!! Got me??

As far as I'm concerned the grail is isolating the rider in a wide variety of terrain to allow him to stay in control but give enough feed back to know whats going on down there. Basically no harshness!!

KYB seems to like the direction of Showa. There latest fork is incredibly simular. The base valve is huge. It takes very little pressure to get some oil flow. It seems to give the best of both worlds as far as a single vs. a 2 stage stack. The fork has a lot of good features. Nice low friction coatings, the fact that it's a twin chamber to isolate the valving, compression bleed valving. On the 06 KYB they tappered the outer tube more from top to bottom to give it more flex. This might have to do with the fact that they are using aluminum for frames witch is more rigid. Since Showa and KYB are pretty close and it seems that Showa likes to lead the way, whats next?? I know theirs a lot more technology in those works forks. What do you think is going to be next to trickle down jer??

Posted by: PedroMx---------------------

We tend to generalize that the leading edge in technology is inside the big companies when in most cases the corporative jungle eats a good amount of ideas.

also two brains are better than one... so that compensates, or not...

but i cannot really comment on what are the R&D depts of the susp. manufacturers investigating because i have not the slightest clue of what are they doing.

that being said...

the grail is traction and control!! and whatever method of getting it is valid.

but racing and innovation do not always go hand in hand, because to win you have to be only 1% better than your competition and that is what drives 99% of the racing development effort. 1% better of a bad idea works as well to win as 1% of a good idea.

and to some points

Digressive seems the way to go with hydraulic systems and progressive motion ratios given the "squared resistance characteristic" of fluids. But talking of the spring/damper in rear suspension systems the general assumption that a coilover is the only weight/space/mechanical wise option is, in my opinion, stalling development.
we could get the spring to work in a progressive rate and the hydraulics in a digressive or linear rate (in which digressive damping can no longer be viable), we can have leverage variable rates (mechanically or electronically controlled), we could put hollow torsion springs with variable speed or position sensitive preload (again mechanically or electronically controlled).
Right now there is no link btw front and rear suspension and the transient moments are somewhat controlled but in an isolated way. And the small weight differential between suspended and unsuspended mass in a motorcycle makes matters more complexity.

Also competition rules based in production models are a really big player here.

I also somewhat agree with you about suspension manufacturers trying to make the horse drink water while sitting in its head.

now research is where some money should be spent but is not what delivers a meal to the table (in general).

Has happened to me that is hard to look at your competitor in the winner´s circle using what you know is and old idea fiddled to the nth degree while you, while losing, are thinking of yourself as a semi god reinventing the wheel.

On top of all that is the fact that racing is not life but a part of it stretched to the limit.

please excuse if this random thougths are not what you are talking about.

Posted by: bedell99---------------------

I think in future both high speed and low speed circuits should be adjustable via clickers on the forks. Also just like the superbikes, TI or DLC coatings will eventually become standard. I definetly think KYB is on the right track, twin chambers are the way to go. What I always wondered was why KYB didn't release a twin chamber fork earlier.

Erik

Posted by: Air Chunk---------------------

Bedell,
because they had to find a way around the showa patents

Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------

KYB actually invented the TC fork but decided it was too expensive for a production item, so it stayed on works bikes, then showa patented alot of the concepts and decided to make a version of it for OEM.

Posted by: bedell99---------------------

Maybe Jeremy can anser this question. Is there much more technology in "A" works components(RC, CR, Windham, etc) compared to what is production. I understand the tolerances are much tighter and workmanship greater nut is there really a difference from what an average Joe can buy for 5K.

Erik

Posted by: Jeremy Wilkey---------------------

Gentlemen,
Glad to see everyone still involved. I've not seen anything really exciting from a Moto standpoint. The A kits and so forth are just higher quality, versions of the same design concept. I remember the first time I took a true "works" shock apart and while still in shock (

) from the reality that I was seeing inside a work of art the actual contents where a anticlimactic. I'm not saying I've seen it all or that’s its not exciting even still, its just it’s the same old numbers at a fundamental level.

I think Mountain bikes really have some of the cooler stuff out right now (that you and I can play with) so it’s exciting to see Fox get back into offroad. I've been evaluating the Fox shock for the KX/RM 65, KX85 shock is amazing in terms of adjustability and "happiness" or "balance" of adjusters and valving.

I think we are on the cusp of seeing some new stuff from Fox, Ohlins, and even the new Progressive, (lighter more adjustable and different)

Well that’s all for now, I'll be back in 2006 after I get back from my honeymoon. My last post as a single man...

BR,
Jer

Posted by: Vic---------------------

Congrats on the nuptials, Jer.

Posted by: chrismxer---------------------

Hope she knows what she's getting into! Ha! Ha!

Posted by: PMK---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy Wilkey

Gentlemen,
Glad to see everyone still involved. I've not seen anything really exciting from a Moto standpoint. The A kits and so forth are just higher quality, versions of the same design concept. I remember the first time I took a true "works" shock apart and while still in shock (

JW
Congratulations on the wedding, best for you and the new wife.

Like always the apparent grail is never found, it will always remain elusive, one may get close and think they are holding it but it may only be for a moment.

One issue that faces off road motorsports is the speed and terrain envelope, it's not uncommon to have speeds at near zero for nasty woods / roots sections to extreme speeds found in the deserts. Pretty basic and the reason tuners setup for individuals when they buy their work.

In regards to how to build the perfect setup from a design end, the production items of coatings and machining bores while clamped, are all the little things that add up.

Are TC's it, maybe, are open bath suspensions obsolete, maybe, is a setup like NOST sells going to be the thing after the TC's, anything is possible.

As for thoughts on the Showas, I can't prove it as I have no dyno runs showing HS compliance, but I still wonder to this day if it's a possibility that to gain some additional HS compliance, while still having that connected feel, the setup is designed to somewhat try to cavitate the damping piston and apply the excess pressure/movement into the ICS to take out a portion of the spike. The digression of the valve design is important also to allow this to happen. Also lowering the CG never hurts either.

The topic of the new technology being in the MTB world is true but also misleading. I'm not entirely certain what specific areas you are referring to JW, some of the technology is just to focused on removing what's known as biopacing, the effect of inducing suspension movement from pedaling, which generally is perceived as a reduction in effeicency to move the bike forward. But there are big tradeoffs. Years back a British magazine did some basic tests, three bikes, a fully rigid, a hardtail with like an 80mm fork, and a full suspension. And one big hill. The test was simple, same rider comparisons, each bike was pedaled to a same starting speed at the hilltop and entered the speed section at the same speed, the timed speed run was done by coasting. In the end the full suspension bike was always faster, the rigid always slowest. It proved in a basic method that suspension was better overbumps, but suffered in pedalling eficency. Tests like these lead to the stable platform concepts where the suspension works when needed but remains stable when not needed. This is the big rage at the moment where riders can pedal sitting or standing and not effect the suspesnion, and in theory put more power into going forward.

For the most part bicycles have a fairly narrow speed window for xc riding, downhill riders obviously are going faster but with races being more of a sprint are more concerned about good handling and bump performance, and if the biopace can be removed all the better. The xc bikes when to cushy with no stable platform are like pedalling a marshmallow, real plush, vague with no feedback and pedals bang off roots and such, too firm and it beats you up plus you're carrying the weight for no good reason. Like motorcycles, a rider should find his own preferred setup, sadly most guys that buy an XC mtb have no clue, and normally run the suspension so firm they should ride a rigid bike. Most bike shops have not much suspesion background and provide bad info and worse repairs. MTB stuff has come a long way, but still has a long way to go.

As I've heard, Ohlins has already liscensed the 5 way(?) technology to Cane Creek, Progressive is doing their thing, and being in California, there is no telling what Fox has going on. I think the others are just moving forward at normal speed.

Grail wise, my pick is the Williams F1 car from years ago. To watch the technology work in ultra slow motion as the cars went over curbs was for me amazing, not only did the suspension sense and adjust the chassis for turn in but it also responded to road surface conditions. The total idea of the system beyond it's expense is huge, not only can damping be tuned with a computer, but also ride heights, progressions and speed sensitivity, for damper shaft speed but also vehicle speed.

Moto fork wise I still beleive that a normal open bath cartridge setup can work well, it just lacks that ability for crisis control, it needs a tunable "vent" to blow off cartridge pressure spikes. And a way to possitively refill the cartridge body with a minimum of outside pressure. A few ideas have been discussed and/or sketched, with Husky doing his thing too.

Rear suspension is the one area that would truly thrive in an active world. It appears that Jap bike wise it's about linkage ratios and curves of progression vs position. PDS wise there are several good methods to a decent setup. I does need another step up to be there though. The WP guys need to start knocking down a wall of their box to see a little outside of it. With some simple rethinking they could do it and possibly go beyond the linkage.

PK

Posted by: svi---------------------

Perhaps street bikes lead the way?
From a press release:

Traxxion Dynamics Gas Cartridges Ready For Initial Production

Traxxion Dynamics has successfully completed the second stage of tests in the development of a gas-charged supersport-legal fork cartridge system which will be known as Axxion Gas Cartridges. The project will move from prototype to short run production, which will see the first 25 sets available at the end of January.

CMRA Superstar and AMA Pro Michael Sanchez put the prototype cartridges through a series of tests under the supervision of suspension tuner Don Finelli. Sanchez completed 130 miles of testing using Jeff Duke’s Winn Racing Suzuki GSX-R750 on Dunlop DOT race tires at MotorSport Ranch Houston in Texas.

Sanchez commented that he could have gone straight from the test to the starting grid. “This new gas kit is working great. There is no doubt in my mind they are better than anything I have ever ridden on. Don says there is another level of improvement coming in the first production run, and if they are any better than what I tested here today, it will be a major advantage to any rider or team who has them.”

Finelli was impressed as well. “Mark Junge is the only guy who has tested these up to this point, so the gas stuff was new to Sanchez. What Traxxion sent us to test here was a major revision to the first set of prototypes that Junge tested, and from what I saw here today, this is the future of supersport racing suspension. We took them out of the box, and they are good enough to race for a win without even cracking the caps open. We did learn some things that will be applied as far as moving the adjusting range, but really they are already great in prototype form. Any factory AMA rider could put these forks on the front row just like they are now. They are supposed to be a whole step better in production form. I am looking forward to that.”

Most pleased was Traxxion’s President, Max McAllister. “Things are going so good with this project, it is much better than I imagined. Martin Musil, my Lead Technician, has played a key role in the improvements we made in the second stage. We have a third major update to apply to our first short run. I am confident that our final stage will make sure the Axxion Gas Kit it is so superior to anything else on the market that it will be a serious disadvantage to a professional or expert racer who isn’t using it.

"Interest in this project is high, and we are already contracted with a factory World Supersport team, which I cannot specify until formal press releases are executed by the team. But suffice to say, we will be competing for a win at the world level next year with this product. Once the riders are announced, we will release the details of our deal.

"I also wanted to thank Al Mitchell and Jerry Massengale of the new MotorSport Ranch Houston. Yesterday it rained, and we had to postpone the test, and they were extremely accommodating to the guys and let them stay overnight to test today. The guys say the new track there is awesome. It is a great place for teams to consider testing over the winter, and the weather is good. Check it out online if you get a chance.”

For more information, contact Traxxion Dynamics directly, info@traxxion.com.

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What is the grail?

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