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why is Jeramy so slow through the whoops??
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Posted by: rodH---------------------

actually he looks like guys used to look, but Buddy, RC and even Reed seem to attack the whoops like crazy. It seems like in hte good ole days guys would set up for the whoops kind of leaning back and just get through them, now these guys are attacking them. Is this change do to the 450s or just more competition/riding style??

Posted by: pro2k---------------------

It's called old age, dude.......haha. I thought McGrath did a hell of a job out there. He always starts strong but wears out quickly and the rest is history

Posted by: JST122---------------------

He definitely still has the skills but you cant compare him to the 20 year old competition, his fitness just wont last. The fact that he finished 4th is amazing considering that is the top spot for the rest of the field since I dont think anyone else in the entire field can run the pace of Carmichael, Stewart, and Reed. When Windham comes back maybe he can get up there and mix it up a little but right now lap times prove that everyone else is racing for 4th.

Posted by: ellandoh---------------------

i would like to throw this out there just one more time, since it will be the last time possible........if you throw out the top three freaks of nature, Jeremy took 1st on a 2stroke

Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Throw out the top three and Jeremy could finsih first on a 1 stroke...

Posted by: ellandoh---------------------

he wouldn't try a one stroke, nobody rides those anymore

Posted by: procircuitdudecr26---------------------

Well the podium was filled with four strokes

Posted by: JST122---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by procircuitdudecr26

Well the podium was filled with four strokes

Honestly, the podium would be filled with two strokes if Carmichael, Reed, and Stewart were all riding the 250's. It doesnt matter what they ride, they are head and shoulders above the rest of the field.

Posted by: ellandoh---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by JST122

sounds familiar, like maybe last year

Posted by: oldfrt613---------------------

I think it speaks volumes that Jeremy did so well, he's racing for fun and I'm sure he is not training like the regulars - has absolutely nothing to prove yet takes 4th - what does it say for the rest of the field !

Posted by: Thump---------------------

It says that Jeremy is one of the greatest of all time and he still has some left in the tank. Kinda like Doug Henry at Southwick.

Posted by: ellandoh---------------------

ole' Dowd did pretty well for himself last summer pushing 40

Posted by: wardy---------------------

two things come to mind. make that track wetter and sticky, jeremy likely lot closer to the win. dry slick tracks cater to deisel turds.

what i seen is a guy who I didn't appreciate in the past, last night in his interview I liked what i heard. He now is riding totally for the fact he wants to and is doing it for the love of the sport like most of us do it. thats cool. he is older for the sport. BUT piss him off once on a night like that, watch him clean those boys clock just to show he can. time hasn't happened but a sticky track and little more spark it could.

another note. technical tracks are bull****. people come to watch racing, last night was RACING!
the powers to be need to appreciate the fact that tracks need to promote the sport in that light and quit hurting all the up and coming privateers. some day those riders will be the ones we all watch.

not to mention riders who are hurt don't race, or even quit, hopefully they still can walk, keep the tracks friendly to good racing, and the injurys will be less.

wardy

Posted by: JST122---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by ellandoh

sounds familiar, like maybe last year

Exactly

Posted by: HOT C---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Okiewan

Throw out the top three and Jeremy could finsih first on a 1 stroke...

Dis-qualify all 3 of them for some bs reason [like illegal racing diesel in a 4T] then MC is on a podium with Nick Wey and Byrne.

Posted by: HOT C---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thump

It says that Jeremy is one of the greatest of all time and he still has some left in the tank. Kinda like Doug Henry at Southwick.

Guuys; MC is back and he is only serving notice on a 2T, watch out for Anaheim 2.

Posted by: john3_16---------------------

How about that 2 stroke holeshot!

Posted by: hellbertos---------------------

First of all... he may be SLOWER through the whoops than RC, CR, JS, but he ain't slow. In fact, no one on that track could actually be considered slow in my opinion. If you qualify for an AMA Supercross main event... yer not slow. Period.

Second... it was great to see MC out there on auto-pilot in 4th place (I thoroughly enjoy the fact that he was on a 2T, but just to see the guy out there is great!). It really shows not only the competitiveness (sp?.. is that a even a word??). of 2Ts in Supercross, but is also a testament to his ability. Is it just me or is he one of the smoothest ever (reminds me of Johnny O'Mara)... he still makes it look easy.

Lastly, Wardy, you brought up a great point about track condition that hadn't occoured to me, but in retrospect seems obvious... though I'm not totally convinced he'd have held off the "freaks". Also your comment about "deisel turds" was freaking PRICELESS!! W/ your permission I intend to use that term liberally. Oh, and I agree 100%, I pay my hard earned $$$ to see racing, not watch guys get stretchered off for reconstructive surgery.

Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Quote:

Oh, and I agree 100%, I pay my hard earned $$$ to see racing, not watch guys get stretchered off for reconstructive surgery.

Too bad a good part of the non-riding public watches just for that reason.. it's the NASCAR effect, except in NASCAR, it's so damn boring ALL there is to watch are the crashes.

Posted by: i_955---------------------

why is Jeremy so slow through the whoops??

The only thing I can think of is the pressure of knowing that Chad, Ricky and James are somewhere behind and might at any time be smoking up behind to pass. We’ve all seen each one of them (Ricky last weekend and in TOR) choke while one of the others is pressuring from behind. It makes all of them look like they are struggling around the obstacles while pressured from behind.
The mind needs to think only whoops, a single thought other that whoops, might mean an off.
Even Bubba said he looks to the end of the whoops, pins the throttle and hopes for the best. That is why they are there, because they are supposed to be hard to get through…. And that is why lappers are so dangerous, they can’t concentrate while having to think about when the pass will happen.

Phoenix observations

Bubba going down was a good thing, he might have walked away with a perfect season.
He is simply faster than all others and that makes for a less than exciting spectating. Now going into round 3 we’re all tied up…. Exciting

If they make the SX tracks any more "4 stroke friendly" we'll be watching SuperMoto every weekend. Is Ricky every going to stop whining and crying attempting to get the AMA to make the tracks more to his liking? What a baby.
And I really hope Reed really stuffs him next race, I mean punt that little ****** into the stands. I watched Ricky take the exact same line lap after lap that Reed took on the start (which forced 4 into the bails), seamed to be a good line for Ricky but not Chad? Then 4 comes in for the take-out on Reed.

Oh ya, we are very proud of our two stroke performances last weekend.

2 Strokes Are For Rippin Up The Dirt
4 Strokes Are For Getting Me There.

Posted by: kmccune---------------------

I'm not so sure that he was trying as hard as he could, notice I didn't say should. I think he is having fun and getting a riding and fan fix, but that he does not want to mess up anyones championship hopes by racing too hard with them. Anyway he has his, so he doesn't have to hang it out all the way anymore.

Posted by: JPIVEY---------------------

Quote:

he does not want to mess up anyones championship hopes

That was a class act when he went wide for RC, his attitude on the track and off is a huge asset to the sport, his involvment in the sound issues and rider education is what will keep us riding, we need more Pro level guys with his attitude and influence.

Posted by: Jeff Gilbert---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPIVEY

I agree with that. MC could have tried to hold on to 1st for a little longer but he's only racing a few SX's and is not chasing a championship. The other 3 were for sure faster than MC so he let them by but I don't think they took it from him.

Posted by: JST122---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2strokesrule

filled with 4 strokes because there racing bikes half there size. they can never race a 2 stroke with the same engine displacement and win,

That is not necessarily true, I would venture to say that a 450 4T would beat a 500 2T in a heads up race, only because 500cc 2T's are not that easy to ride. If you have ever watched some of the old dual class races like Motocross Des Nations you'll recall that often times in the 250cc-500cc combined motos, the overall race was most often won by a 250, even when the 250's started in the second row, because they are just easier to ride fast. If it was simply a drag race, well thats another story, but out on the track you need a bike with adequate power and that is nimble and easy to handle.

Posted by: rmrider125---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Okiewan

Too bad a good part of the non-riding public watches just for that reason.. it's the NASCAR effect, except in NASCAR, it's so damn boring ALL there is to watch are the crashes.

amen to that

Posted by: Rooster---------------------

Let he who is faster than Jeremy in the whoop section cast the first roost

Posted by: FruDaddy---------------------

Because he can be, there's no rush anymore. Besides, after 30 broken bones aren't fun or cool, they just suck.

Posted by: kmccune---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by JST122

OK so hows about a 350 2 stroke

Posted by: JST122---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmccune

OK so hows about a 350 2 stroke

Well now your getting closer, I have never seen a 350 2T motocross bike but if you could squeeze one in a 250 frame I would believe you would have a great weapon there and if you could ride it like a 250 2T and maintain similar weight to the 450 4T or less, then the 350 would be faster than the 450 in my opinion seeing as how a 250 2T is not that far off in outdoors.

That wasnt the point of my post however, the point of my post was just to point out that if you had a 2T with the same engine displacement as a 4T it does not necessarily mean you would be faster on the 2T. In my example the 2T even has 50cc more displacement and I still think in that example the 4T would have the advantage. However if you took a 250 2T up against a 250 4T at that point the 2T definitely has the advantage. I just wanted to point out the fact that having the same engine displacement does not necessarily make them equal after a certain point.

Posted by: XRpredator---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by JST122

Well now your getting closer, I have never seen a 350 2T motocross bike . . .

have you not been in the sport long?

KTM360SX

Posted by: holeshot---------------------

Or one of these......

http://www.vintage-suzuki.com/broch...76_RM_370_w.jpg

I had one - ahhh the memories

Posted by: Vic---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by holeshot

Or one of these......

http://www.vintage-suzuki.com/broch...76_RM_370_w.jpg

I had one - ahhh the memories

Looky here.....

http://dirtrider.net/forums3/showthread.php?t=126812

Posted by: CaptainObvious---------------------

Slow? I guess it's a relative term.

As I see it, a part-time weekend warrior (given, the immediate past GOAT) came in fourth racing the best riders in the US. Moreover, Showtime let the fast guys past with a nod and a wave. I’d say he was having a good time. So why bust his butt making great time through the hardest – and most dangerous – section of track?

I guess he’s just slow.

Posted by: JST122---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRpredator

have you not been in the sport long?

KTM360SX

I have actually been in this sport for many moons. Yes, yes, yes, plenty of vintage 360's and 370's from the early Euro models/brands like bultaco all the way to the japanese models. However I was talking about current models. If you could take your old bultaco 360 pursang engine and stuff it into your 06 250 2T frame that thing would be a rocket ship. However that engine is probably good enough to double as an anchor for a battle ship. They werent quite as weight conscious back then. That is a good point about the KTM 360SX though, I overlooked that bike and I stand corrected, but I dont think they are making that bike anymore, I could be wrong. Last one I saw was an 04 model I think. Unfortunately you have to ride that bike in the open class though.

Posted by: Thump---------------------

How about a 500 cc 2T?

http://www.servicehonda.com/cr500af05.html

Posted by: JST122---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thump

How about a 500 cc 2T?

http://www.servicehonda.com/cr500af05.html

That was my point, a 500cc 2T is not easy to ride, most dual class races including a row of 500cc and a row of 250cc the overall race win was most often taken by a 250, even when they started in the back row.

Posted by: Rooster---------------------

I thought this thread was about Jeremy and whoops?

Posted by: OldassKDX---------------------

As far as I'm convinced, these forums are an argument against intelligent design. We can see over time in repeatable laboratory conditions that any thread, given enough time will evolve into one of two topics......"2 stroke vs. 4 stroke", or "RC vs. JBS". You can see that this can happen without intelligence of any kind (provable if you check the forums at "the 4-stroke site".) Unfortunately these threads appear to be an evolutionary dead end, are usually short lived, and should be replaced (given enough geological time) with threads such as "I have anything useful to say about the sport whatsoever" or "I have a question or observation that has not been brought up dozens of time, and I have used the search function to verify this."

Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

As long as there are 2-strokers left, it'll be so! Assimilating all these lost souls should be our goal, then all the planets will align with the forums again.

I wonder if the same arguments were going on back when the 2-stroke worked it's way into off-road / MX bikes? I'd offer that we have folks here that are big into the debates that don't even realize 4-t's powered the first dirtbikes?

Having flammed that fire...

Back to MC being slow.

Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by JST122

Have you ever ridden a 500? They are as close to a 4 stroke as a 2 stroke can get. Very easy to ride. Just use a little care with the throttle

Posted by: wardy---------------------

SEEEEEEE! but they aren't ALLOWED to race the 250 class~! HA!
AND hell yea I was around when people rode those turds in the begining, but was a youngster on a 125. in the LITES @#$&**^% class.

I tell ya what would make me happy, lets open up that 250-450 class to teh 500cc.......see what guys ride at a few of these outdoor tracks!!!! Specially Red Bud.

Posted by: JST122---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Okiewan

Have you ever ridden a 500? They are as close to a 4 stroke as a 2 stroke can get. Very easy to ride. Just use a little care with the throttle

I have rode a 500cc 2 stroke, it may be as close to a 450 4T as you can get, but it still isnt the same. Like you said just use a little care with the throttle, that is what makes it more difficult to ride. Again, my only point was to show that just because you have an equal displacement 2 stroke as the 4 stroke it is competing against, it still doesnt mean it would be equal because you have to take into consideration how easy the bike is to ride on the track thats all. I proved this point by showing the comparison that in many dual class races including 500cc and 250cc 2T's, the overall race win more times than not went to the 250cc. So more displacement does not necessarily translate to faster lap times, thats all I was getting at. The same rider on both bikes usually turns a faster lap on the 250cc 2T than they will on the 500cc 2T, this will of course depend on the style of track. But for all intensive purposes this is true in most cases/tracks. I am not a 4T guy or a 2T guy I am a Dirt Bike guy and thats it. I am not attempting to debate which is better because I feel both bikes have + & -.

The point is that there is a happy medium at some point of displacement where both bikes are pretty much evenly matched, but 1:1 displacement is not going to be it.

Posted by: wardy---------------------

class 1 249cc and below
Class 2 250cc and above.

done

Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Quote:

equal because you have to take into consideration how easy the bike is to ride on the track thats all.

So they should make classes on the "easy factor" ?

Posted by: JST122---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Okiewan

So they should make classes on the "easy factor" ?

Again you are completely confusing the point I was making. You need to go back and read what my string of posts says.

Someone made the comment that it wasnt fair to have a 2T with less displacement racing with 4T twice the size, and that if you had a 4T and 2T with equal displacement that the 2T would always win. So I then simply refuted that opinion by stating just because you have more displacement doesnt mean you are going to get around the track faster. It has nothing to do with basing classes off of an "easy factor". I dont know where you came up with that. I am not arguing the point that the classes are right the way they are, I am stating that yes they need to add some displacement to the 2T to make up the power disadvantage. However, making the increase equal to 4T displacement isnt the answer because then the 4T will be under powered, and the logic of an equal sized 2T will always beat and equal sized 4T is not at all true. Sure when you are talking 250cc bikes but there is a point where the size outweighs the benefits of the power and an Excellent example of that point is with a 500cc 2T. Simply because of the fact that most riders actually turn faster laps on a 250cc which is half the size. The point of the class discussion is to put 2T and 4T on level playing ground and make them equal. My point is that they wouldnt be equal at 450cc 4T and 450cc 2T, because most every rider can turn a faster lap on a 250cc 2T than they could on a 500cc 2T so if you allowed people to race a 500cc or 450cc 2T against a 450 4T you would actually be putting the 2T rider at more of a disadvantage because they can go faster on the 250cc 2T.

Thats all I was getting at. Again, The point is that there is a happy medium at some amount of displacement where both bikes are pretty much evenly matched, but it is not a 1:1 displacement ratio.

Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Quote:

if you had a 4T and 2T with equal displacement that the 2T would always win

But they are different technologies... different cc's make different hp. You knew that, right?

Quote:

just because you have more displacement doesnt mean you are going to get around the track faster.

But isn't that the point of the first point? Or is the point of the 3rd point? What exactly is the point?

Quote:

I am stating that yes they need to add some displacement to the 2T to make up the power disadvantage.

Why not reduce the displacement of the 4-T's?

Quote:

Simply because of the fact that most riders actually turn faster laps on a 250cc which is half the size.

Can we get some quotes on that? Facts and figures please.

Quote:

The point of the class discussion is to put 2T and 4T on level playing ground and make them equal.

That's what the AMA intended.

Quote:

My point is that they wouldnt be equal at 450cc 4T and 450cc 2T, because most every rider can turn a faster lap on a 250cc 2T than they could on a 500cc 2T so if you allowed people to race a 500cc or 450cc 2T against a 450 4T you would actually be putting the 2T rider at more of a disadvantage because they can go faster on the 250cc 2T.

Gimmie a couple days to 'sipher on that, I'll get back to ya.

and after all that... I'm just pullin on your leg JST.

Posted by: kmccune---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Okiewan

As long as there are 2-strokers left, it'll be so! Assimilating all these lost souls should be our goal, then all the planets will align with the forums again..

OK back to the topic, I though Mac did very well with the hp disadvantage. The 4s has to have an advantage with more and easier to control power in the whoops.

Posted by: Vic---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Okiewan

Have you ever ridden a 500? Very easy to ride.

Properly tuned.

Posted by: zcookie49---------------------

RacerX just reported that MC has been testing all week long on a CRF450r and barring any changes, should be riding it at A2. It also said that he expects to have better results with the 4T.

Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Yet another shot to the heart.

Posted by: HOT C---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by zcookie49

RacerX just reported that MC has been testing all week long on a CRF450r and barring any changes, should be riding it at A2. It also said that he expects to have better results with the 4T.

I think MC has come to believe in himself that he still belong in that elite group. I was doubting him at first, but after phoenix he earned alot of my respect and i expect to see him back full time on a big factory ride. What a great season it is ?

Posted by: i_955---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by zcookie49

RacerX just reported that MC has been testing all week long on a CRF450r and barring any changes, should be riding it at A2. It also said that he expects to have better results with the 4T.

Here we go. The answer to the whole 2 stroke/ 4 stroke wars we’ve been waiting for.

If MC doesn't get the holeshot, big nac the first jump, hold off the 3 freaks till mid/late in the race and pull a 4th in the main, then it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, the 2 stroke is unquestionably a better machine than the 4 stroke…

If MC at least does this and pulls a 3rd then the 4 stroke is unquestionably the better machine..

Not that I would ever wish any bad luck to one of my heroes, I hope MC’s 450 blows up 20’ out of the gate, with smoke, and fire, and bikini clad firefighting babes, and all the KTM50 kids come out and roast marshmallow on it, and the 2 stroke fans go crazy!

Best of luck MC, don’t matter what your riding, just happy to see you out there…

And careful, the 450’s can’t make triples, just ask Jeff Alessi.

Posted by: XRpredator---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by zcookie49

RacerX just reported that MC has been testing all week long on a CRF450r and barring any changes, should be riding it at A2. It also said that he expects to have better results with the 4T.

Dedicated to all those 2 stroke die-hards:

This is the end
Beautiful friend
This is the end
My only friend, the end

Of our elaborate plans, the end
Of everything that stands, the end
No safety or surprise, the end
I'll never look into your eyes...again

Posted by: Vic---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vic

Dear Jeremy,

PLEASE get a 450.

Your pal,

Vic

Thanks, buddy.

Now, go kick some @ss!

Posted by: i_955---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vic

Thanks, buddy.

Now, go kick some @ss!

Vic! You did this?

Bastich

I borrowed this from another MX/SX web site: Don't know the validity but it sounds reasonable.

"MC said that because he's only a part timer he doesn't have much say on what bike he rides, he's pretty much just testing and racing whatever bike they tell him too."

Posted by: JST122---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Okiewan

and after all that... I'm just pullin on your leg JST.

Thank god, cause if you were serious I would have had to throw in the towel and just chalk it up to you just having bad reading comprehension skills and an inability to reason. I didnt have the patience to try and explain all of that again.

Dirt Bikes Rock, 4T or 2T I just want to ride them all.

Posted by: kmccune---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRpredator

Dedicated to all those 2 stroke die-hards:

This is the end
Beautiful friend

Don't call me beautiful ever again

Soo...... Hondas worried that Mac might beat one of their precious 4s and is making him ride one too.

Posted by: danielst---------------------

Oh well, as long as KTM keeps making the 2T's, I don't care what the other brands do. Thumpers may be awesome on an MX track, but I don't like them at all in the woods. That may change in the future, but the current generation of thumpers aren't for me. And according to the sales numbers from KTM, I don't think that I'm the only woods guy who thinks that way.

On another tangent, anybody been watching the Canadian MX? They still have an awful lot of guys running 2T's in the 450 class and they are winning on them the majority of the time. Any idea why the 2T's are still somewhat popular up there?

Posted by: mxer_69---------------------

250 2- strokes are still popular because of their lower costs and personal choice. Canadian race teams don't have the budget that the US teams do. Just a perfect example of "its the rider". However, i think you will see a different picture come next year. I also recently made the switch to a 450. I still like my 250 but i got sucked in and jumped on the bandwagon.

Cheers,

Posted by: Vic---------------------

I'll bet some of those Canadian "250s" are closer to 300.

Posted by: wardy---------------------

Posted by: JPIVEY---------------------

Wardy !!!, last night you posted ( I thought ) a interview, I only listen to 1/2 and zonked out, I wanted do listen to it today and isn't gone..............was I dreaming or did you break it

Posted by: wardy---------------------

I did the same thing and thought i posted it in this thread. I was going to try and find out who deleted it...............LOL. I am getting to friggin old, its in the how long will it take thread not this one.........the reason the little scooter deal is in this thread, I ripped on "who ever" deleted my post..........

oh well its in the other thread.

wardy

here it is

save some huntin.

http://www.pitpassradio.com/archives/ppr051129hr1.wax

Posted by: Rooster---------------------

Two stroke, four stroke,
Cap'n Morgan Coke,
One is better than the other?
I think is just a joke!

Just ride. The true answer lies at the finish line and what you prefer to ride.

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why is Jeramy so slow through the whoops??

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