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Power valves stuck closed?

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Posted by: captbly99---------------------

OK, I have been noticing a loss of power in my bike, mostly the lower gears, been trying to use a lot of clutch work to get it out of the corners and up hills, etc.
Last May('05) I took apart the KIPS and cleaned everything and put new rings in it, not a new piston, it measured within spec.
Also, it has been just plain running like crap. Not like a spunky KDX should.

So, a guy from a local shop rode it the other day and he came back and told me he thought they were not working.
He suggested I clean it up and take the pipe off and he would look up in the exhaust port in the morning.

So, did that. So when we look up in there, they are closed. As I believe they should be when not running. But, when we tried to turn the governor shaft(the arm that connects the lower to the top), they would not hardly open. (really, we disconnected it and just turned the gear.)

He suggested we take the cylinder off and have a look.
Well, after only less then 1 year the main valve was carboned up something terrible. Took us 30 minutes to get it out.
My questions I guess are:
Are the symptons of my bike what they should be for the valves being stuck closed? I have read about them being stuck open, but not really closed.

What caused so much carbon build up in that time? The spooge was really not all that bad. I did admit to only using 87 octane, he thinks that is the problem. Not sure.

When I did the top end last May, I had a problem with it and ended up sending it to Fredette and just told him to put all the valves back together so I would be SURE it was assembled right. So, I am pretty sure it was right to begin with. But, I really can't say it ever ran strong after it went back together.

Sorry for the long post, just wanted some second opinions.
Since I didn't replace the piston last time, I am doing that this time.
I guess, after it's all cleaned up and back together. It should feel like a new bike. I hope. And I promised to stop using the cheap gas!
BTW: 95 200
155/45/2nd groove from the top.
yamalube 40:1
Fatty/TC2/Boyeson Reeds

Fouled plugs last two times out? But the plugs did not look really wet. Could that be happening due the KIPS not working right?

PS. I am aware of the reverse thread on that shaft nut, but I got to thinking maybe somehow it is maybe broke down under the clutch cover. Can't check it out until I get back to the shop. But I plan on making sure it is not broke, but I was thinking surely I would have found out the hard way if it was. Wouldn't it have done some terrible damage by now on the clutch?


Posted by: strider80---------------------

I think you are on the right track, disassemble-clean-assemble. Then make sure your jetting is spot on when you get it running again. Either it was running super rich(your jets look good though) and carboned the KIPS up something fierce, or the KIPS was jammed shut durning the first top-end job??????


Posted by: canyncarvr---------------------

First...apologies if this is disjointed somewhat. I was just about finished with a rather indepth reply when Blessed Windows IE encountered an error...and closed everything..


Quote:
Originally Posted by captbly99
OK, I have been noticing a loss of power in my bike, mostly the lower gears, been trying to use a lot of clutch work to get it out of the corners and up hills, etc.
Last May('05) I took apart the KIPS and cleaned everything and put new rings in it, not a new piston, it measured within spec.
Also, it has been just plain running like crap. Not like a spunky KDX should.

So, a guy from a local shop rode it the other day and he came back and told me he thought they were not working.
He suggested I clean it up and take the pipe off and he would look up in the exhaust port in the morning.

So, did that. So when we look up in there, they are closed. As I believe they should be when not running. But, when we tried to turn the governor shaft(the arm that connects the lower to the top), they would not hardly open. (really, we disconnected it and just turned the gear.)

The word 'closed' doesn't really explain what the condition was. Consider the subport drums are always closed to SOMEthing, whatever position they are in.

I assume you to mean the main valve flapper was 'down'. That still leaves the subports open to question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by captbly99



He suggested we take the cylinder off and have a look.
Well, after only less then 1 year the main valve was carboned up something terrible. Took us 30 minutes to get it out.
My questions I guess are:
Are the symptons of my bike what they should be for the valves being stuck closed? I have read about them being stuck open, but not really closed.


Back to the subport drums...if they are not timed correctly or broken in some way, the bottom-end of your throttle response will not be as good as it could be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captbly99
What caused so much carbon build up in that time? The spooge was really not all that bad. I did admit to only using 87 octane, he thinks that is the problem. Not sure.


The 'H' specification lists 90 average octane as the minimum. Using a too-low (below spec) octane can be very hazardous to your bike's health.

Re: Carbon
A number of things...poor oil choice, poor fuel quality, combustion chamber not reaching a high enough temperature (too much low-speed (low throttle) operation), too rich jetting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captbly99

When I did the top end last May, I had a problem with it and ended up sending it to Fredette and just told him to put all the valves back together so I would be SURE it was assembled right. So, I am pretty sure it was right to begin with. But, I really can't say it ever ran strong after it went back together.

Sorry for the long post, just wanted some second opinions.
Since I didn't replace the piston last time, I am doing that this time.
I guess, after it's all cleaned up and back together. It should feel like a new bike. I hope. And I promised to stop using the cheap gas!
BTW: 95 200
155/45/2nd groove from the top.
yamalube 40:1
Fatty/TC2/Boyeson Reeds



Fouled plugs last two times out? But the plugs did not look really wet. Could that be happening due the KIPS not working right?


Unless 'something' isn't right, fouling plugs should not be an issue. I can run the same plug for well over a year (way too long, btw)..and that includes thousands of miles and a good bit of low speed put-putting and idling hanging ribbon for local ride events.

I doubt an improperly operating KIPS leads to plug foul. Actually, I'm sure it doesn't, but say 'doubt' because I haven't seen every KIPS failure known to mankind. I have seen plugs from a failed KIPS bike that looked fine. The bike didn't run nearly as well as it should..but fouling plugs isn't one of the problems resulting from a failed KIPS.

You didn't specifically say...but when the cylinder was off, did you find the KIPS to be functioning correctly?

An anecdotal btw...riders have often found their KIPS full of junk..carbon that needed to be chisled off the parts before they could even see the attaching hardware to take the thing apart. I've seen pictures of fairly well jetted bike's KIPS gears that looked quite a mess. The rule of thumb is to take the KIPS apart and clean it at least annually. I've not done that. I've checked mine often over the years; it has always worked smoothly, it has always been clean..meaning pretty much nada carbon buildup. I've never understood what causes other riders' KIPS to be such messes. Well...jetting, usually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captbly99
PS. I am aware of the reverse thread on that shaft nut, but I got to thinking maybe somehow it is maybe broke down under the clutch cover. Can't check it out until I get back to the shop. But I plan on making sure it is not broke, but I was thinking surely I would have found out the hard way if it was. Wouldn't it have done some terrible damage by now on the clutch?


Not necessarily. Some riders have had the entire bottom end (tranny, cases, crank) blow up..some have just found some pieces tucked away in some cranny.

Note this caveat: 'Remote Jetting Doesn't Work!'

If you are NOT building much in the way of chamber temps (say...following little whippersnappers around on their 50s..with training wheels)..carbon buildup is likely more of a problem than otherwise. Still, I would be willing to bet that your pilot selection is a bit on the large side, or maybe your airscrew adjustment is off.

How is your throttle response from off-idle to 3/8..with a quick flick..say in 2nd gear from a walking pace? Adjust your air screw to suit. If you still experience some hesitation or bog..drop your pilot.

I'm not saying the 200 should do a pop-a-wheelie in that situation, but the engine certainly should respond.

Good luck!

Caveat#2: Adjusting plug heat range to compensate for poor jetting is a mistake!

THAT said...if you are jetted 1/2-way close and the lower end of the throttle range is where you ride most..a #7 plug will be of benefit too you.

Don't leave the '7' in and take off on a 1/2 hour WOT screamin'meemie...you may be walking back.


Posted by: captbly99---------------------

Wow, CC, thanks for the very detailed reponse!

Well, got the clutch side cover off and sure enough that lever that connects to the governor shaft was broke and that plastic gear in there almost looked melted. So, who knows how long my KIPS has not been working!

We purchased the bike 10 years ago from a guy going thru a divorce and the soon to be ex wife sabatoged it by putting a small nut and bolt down the oil filler hole, well, a few months after we bought is when we found this out and it had broken a few clutch teeth off, maybe it has been broke since then! And I just never realized the power I was missing! Holy Cow.
Well, I will never really know how long it has been broke, but glad to know what is wrong now and it is getting fixed.
No wonder I thought the KDX was such a tame little thing It should feel like a beast when it is running 100%.


Posted by: canyncarvr---------------------

You have been riding it this way for ten years? Oh my!

May I suggest just a little more love and affection shown to the 'lil green thing?

I don't suppose you've checked your unitrack linkage lately (within the last ten years)? You rebuild the shock annually....right?

Part of any reasonable maintenance plan will include checking the KPS..its activation and the effective movement of the entire system.

Sorry.... not piling on...you likely know all this real well about now.

I'm the pot calling the kettle black, though. I've known my KIPS was broken..and HAS been for most of the past year. I just put off messing with it. Finally got around to fixing it a couple weeks back. Once again I am amazed at how the little KDX can run. My bike has shown me that over and over.

You will be thrilled with how it runs with an intact and operating KIPS.

Cheers!


Posted by: captbly99---------------------

Will it help any if I explain that I am female Not that I am the type to like to use that as an excuse, but maybe going from the XR200 to the KDX 10 years ago, it was a good thing if it wasn't working I took 6 years off from it to have kids and last year got back into it big time. And now am looking for more power!

Actually, I give it lots of attention, I do all the maintenance myself(guess that should explain about everything!) But, just learn as I go and don't completely understand how the KIPS thing works or other internals of the motor, just a little basics.
Check it out, looks good for a '95 doesn't it?
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y2...bly99/95KDX.jpg


Just did all the linkage, swingarm bearings, & rear shock last month. All good to go, thanks for caring


When I took the KIPS apart and cleaned it for the very first time last year, I was really trying to understand it. But, guess I missed some stuff

Can't wait to try it out and probably go kill myself!(just kidding) Got my first harescramble race in 2 weeks, I will need all the power I can get!

Thanks again!
Love this site


Posted by: ridejunky---------------------

Kips just changes the compression ratio and timing of the exhaust gas compression wave to maximize the engines volumetric efficiency( but who really cares, we just want exceptional performance) Most importantly where did you get your shroud graphics?(please don't say fmf) cause
your bike is lookin sharp!


Posted by: TimberPig---------------------

That is a clean looking bike for a 95. If it wasn't for the wear on the frame paint and the kickstarter paint, you'd hardly know it had been ridden.

Here's a link that might help explain the function of the powervalve a little better.

Powervalve Info


Posted by: captbly99---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ridejunky
Most importantly where did you get your shroud graphics?(please don't say fmf) cause
your bike is lookin sharp!


I got those as a gift back in 96-97ish, I have no idea where they came from, but am thinking FMF, I think "lumpyboy" said they discontinued them.


Posted by: captbly99---------------------

Timberpig, thanks for the link.

I actually ride the snot out of that thing! If you saw the other side you would see all the dents in the pipe
Hard to believe all the plastics and seat cover is original. I did most of my learning on that bike.


Posted by: adam728---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by captbly99
Can't wait to try it out and probably go kill myself!(just kidding) Got my first harescramble race in 2 weeks, I will need all the power I can get!

Thanks again!
Love this site


I'm so jealous. I've been looking foward to the DP harescramble for about a 2 months now, but now can't go. Work has been bouncing me all over the damn place for the last 3 weeks, I'm home for 5 days, then gone another 3 weeks. Damn this having-to-earn-a-living thing.

Good luck to ya, with getting the bike ready and the harescramble thing.


Posted by: canyncarvr---------------------

You do have an aftermarket S/A.....I left this part out earlier, not knowing if you did or not.

Low-end throttle response can be negatively effected quite a bit by an insufficiently (read: incorrectly) maintained S/A.

If you're fouling plugs (commonly a too-rich jetting issue...not necessarily) your S/A is operating under more 'stress' than it needs to be.

If you have not repacked in awhile, now's the time! It's easier to pack it too loose than too tight. If the cannister easily slips on without some coaxing/pushing/packing/cussing, you probably do not have it packed tightly enough.

It would be interesting to read an opine on your working KIPS 200..please do write up something. I'm sure you will be surprised.

Take some time to fine-tune your jetting and you will be amazed!!

Good luck!


Posted by: captbly99---------------------

OK, so here is an update, the KIPS governor lever was broke in half, the plastic/nylon gear spur was slightly melted, and the governor shaft that the governor weight and guide slides on had a groove in it which was preventing it from sliding. First, they(local shop guys) put in a new piston and rings and a new governor lever and gear spur, they also replaced the water pump seals etc., put it all back together, the power valves still didn't work! Take it apart and they noticed the groove in that shaft that was preventing the weight and guide to move, so after sanding with some emery cloth, and re-assembly, good to go!
Sounds like a new beast, saw them test ride it and they rode it before and after the work, so they can tell the diff, it's like a wheelie machine, I could barely get the front end up before. My first test ride is Thursday.


Posted by: GS---------------------

Well.....could we expect an update after the Thursday ride?


Posted by: Dewster---------------------

If all goes well, we may not hear from him for a while... or at least until he runs out of gas.


Posted by: kmccune---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by captbly99
OK, so here is an update, ........
, I could barely hey the front end before. My first test ride is Thursday.






Posted by: canyncarvr---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewster
If all goes well, we may not hear from him for a while... or at least until he runs out of gas.


Don't know who 'he' is, but if he DOES run out of gas I'm sure she will be considerate enough to help him out.


Posted by: captbly99---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by GS
Well.....could we expect an update after the Thursday ride?

Oh yeah!


Quote:
Originally Posted by canyncarvr
Don't know who 'he' is, but if he DOES run out of gas I'm sure she will be considerate enough to help him out.

it's OK, not everyone reads the whole thread.


Posted by: captbly99---------------------

Well, all I can say is WOW! What a difference when the power valves are working! Good thing is, I didn't kill myself!
And I remembered what it felt like and it all came back to me!
Saweeeeet!

Bad thing is, I am doing my first real harescramble Saturday and I am nervous as crap! I practiced dead engine starts tonight and I suck! First problem is the bike is not always starting the 1st kick, 2nd problem is getting the kick starter lever back in as I am taking off, seems to slow me down(where is that E start when I need it!). I am starting it in 2nd gear which seemed to work better than first as far as having to worry about shifting up quicker or possibly an unexpected wheelie from a nervous clutch hand.

Good thing is, the weather is going to be awesome and the trail sounds sweeeeeeeeeeet!
Check it out:
http://www.georgiaoffroad.com/forum...d407dc51d3eee62

I guess, I just need to go about it as a regular trail ride and get past the first mile of jitters! Wish me luck!
At least I have the green luck on my side around St. Patty's Day Go team green!


Posted by: GS---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by captbly99

I guess, I just need to go about it as a regular trail ride and get past the first mile of jitters!


Well, you could do that......or......you could rip like the wind for 5 minutes, crash and then everyone following can use you for traction

Just have fun.....ride smooooth and quick...you'll probably make fewer mistakes that way and get faster as the miles pass


Posted by: Green Hornet---------------------

Capt-I don't know how tall you are, but if you are not using a Milk Crate or similar on the left side, THAT MAY HELP YOU. It will allow you to stand up above the bike, so you can give a FULL-HARD-KICK.
Make sure you have someone to remove it after you leave the line.(OR You will have a helmet cage, when you come through the LAP CHECK POINT )
Also, Since your starting in gear, Start your bike, Put in gear, Kill the engine & keep the clutch lever in. Rock the bike back & forth a few inches to free up any clutch bind. You will get a much smoother IN GEAR KICK (Kick it like your kicking to CHINA)


Posted by: captbly99---------------------

Hey GH,

Thanks for the suggestions, I think I will go out back and try them right now! I thought about the milk crate idea, but didn't want to bother someone with removing it for me.

I am 5'7 with a 34" inseam, so height shouldn't really be a problem for me, I just need to put a little more a$$ into the kick I guess.

Thanks again!


Posted by: adam728---------------------

Good luck today, wish I was there like I was suppose to be!


Posted by: captbly99---------------------

OK guys, I am too tired to post a separate ride report, so here is one from our local website, I posted under KDXMOMMA Just read that one!
http://www.georgiaoffroad.com/forum...p=103458#103458


Posted by: Green Hornet---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by captbly99
OK guys, I am too tired to post a separate ride report, so here is one from our local website, I posted under KDXMOMMA Just read that one!
http://www.georgiaoffroad.com/forum...p=103458#103458

So what happened at the LOGS CROSSING/Tech Section.
That should have been a movie not a stillllllllllllll


Posted by: captbly99---------------------

Awwwwww, c'mon, no faith in me!

Actually, that little log crossing was just to slow us up coming into the scoring tent. It wasn't meant to be a "real" obstacle. But, for some reason they did have logs put in like that at the bottom of some up hills That made it a tad harder to get some speed up it.

Now, that I am recovered, I am ready for the next one!

Bike ran great, except for I noticed oil on top of the right hand side clutch cover. Not sure what that is all about, hopefully some bolts just needs to be tightened up. I washed it, but haven't gotten to the post race maintenance.

~Michele


Posted by: adam728---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by captbly99
Bike ran great, except for I noticed oil on top of the right hand side clutch cover. Not sure what that is all about, hopefully some bolts just needs to be tightened up. I washed it, but haven't gotten to the post race maintenance.

~Michele


My guess would be that the breather for the tranny isn't in it's little hole in the airbox, or the cap for the tranny fill isn't tightened down all the way. I've forgoten the breather tube before and had it drool a little crap when riding. I run a full quart in the gearbox, so it spits a little more than if running the recommended 700cc or whatever it is.

You're ready for the next race, I'm still waiting on my first one! Maybe next month's, although the forcast is bleak once again. I'm starting to wonder why I had to relocate to Georgia when I am never there!!!!



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