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Are we killing our own sport?

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Posted by: Jackpiner57---------------------

I don't know if I will get in trouble for posting this, but I think all riders should read it. I copied this from The Blue Ribbon Coalition website. Read the whole thing.



QUIET PLEASE! -- TWO BIKERS TELL A TALE OF SOUND
by Charlie Williams & Bill Uhl



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I was up on a hill the other day and ran into a friend of mine, Billy Uhl, a leader in our sport of dirt biking. Billy was the top American finisher at the 1973 ISDT, as well as a 9-year vet at 6-Days' competitions.

These days, Billy lives in a quiet mountain setting from which he does trail construction and maintenance. Billy has watched our sport from behind the scenes for many years, so if we are smart, we will listen when he speaks.

When I ran into Billy, I was out riding for fun and looking for new subjects to write about. Billy had a subject for me - noise and sound. He works on the trails up here in Idaho. He'll ride his old bike up a hill, park it, then cut and dig trails all day long. Billy loves his "office." He had heard me coming, and I have a quiet bike. It's a 250 two-stroke with a good silencer, so it's never revved up on the pipe. It's stealthily quiet, yet he had heard me for the last couple of minutes.

As we talked, I mumbled along about this and that, only to have him turn his head to say "Huh?" Billy can't hear well out of his left ear. He blames it on years of chain saw and bike use without earplugs.

Here is a guy who loves dirt bikes and riding, deaf in one ear, but he still noticed the sound of my reasonably quiet bike. At one point in our visit, he perked up like Radar on M*A*S*H, saying "Jet plane. You can hear them for two and a half minutes."

"I never paid any attention."

"Exactly," replied Billy. "You can hear a plane for two and a half minutes, but people are used to them and don't pay any attention. So they block them out, just like you've done."

I perked up with my new-found sound sensitivity. "Dirt bike, four-stroke."

As the rider came closer to our side of the small valley, I looked at Billy with surprise. The bike we had been listening to was now within a couple of minutes of us, but it appeared to have given birth to two other bikes that we could now hear softly purring. The entire journey across the valley had taken about ten minutes, but we only heard one bike until the last two minutes.

"This is exactly the point," Billy clarified. "Our sound is normally not audible as far away or as long as that of the jet plane. Because traditionally, motorcyclists stay in the acceptable range of sound, they're only audible for a short time. In this case, we heard one bike a long way off for a long time, and the other two bikes only a short time."

Three happy trail riders had now rolled up, one with a big-man exhaust. Billy tactfully told the loud rider that we could hear his bike from the time he crested the ridge on the other side of the valley. The guy just shook his head while saying something about the bike needing to breathe, so he had opened up the silencer.

Now, I was puzzled and made a caustic comment. "Why do they call it a silencer if it makes more noise?"

The guy explained that he needed the louder exhaust to get the most power out of the 450, and my sarcasm again rode to the surface. So I asked, "Are you a famous racer?"

"Well no."

"Are you in a big race right now?"

"No," he replied sheepishly.

"Then why do you need to disturb everyone for a quarter of a mile around just so you can trail ride?"

"Because I like the power." He was getting defensive now, but I was filled with questions.

"Can you actually use the power? Couldn't Larry Roseler beat you on an 80cc bike? Haven't you noticed that one of your buddies was in front of you?"

Our conversation soon ended. Billy strapped his chain saw back on his dilapidated Kawasaki. I strapped on my helmet, and the five of us took off. The booming four-stroke was right behind me, or so it seemed because the noise was right on my shoulder. I made some good turns, and soon it felt like I must be getting away from him though it sounded like he was still on my fender.

The five of us rode a few miles before Billy stopped to clear a fallen tree. I rolled up, removed my helmet and started to help. Then the loud bike showed up. We had made our point. It's not the bike or the power; it's the rider.

Bob had been transformed. "I get your point, fellas. I'll put the quiet stock exhaust back on my bike. If a guy in hiking boots riding a tool wagon can outride me, then maybe I don't need the little bit of extra power a noisy exhaust might give me."

His friends were beaming smiles. We all laughed, then Bob and his companions rode off. Billy and I listened to Bob's loud bike for quite a while. He was being light on the throttle now, trying to slip away without making any more noise than he had to.

We sat on a log, overlooking the mountains of Idaho. You could see for hundreds of miles in all directions. Huge pine trees and rocky crags towered above us. Streams cut their way through valley floors. Birds chirped and chipmunks skittered about. Mountain lions and wolves live there too, not to mention elk and deer and all the other friendly woodland creatures. A 24-inch wide motorcycle trail snaked its way along, following old miners' routes that had followed the traces of Indians who had followed animal trails.

You get the picture? There is a tiny ribbon of trail zigzagging around. Everyone is happy until someone puts a loud bike on it. Suddenly, noise can be heard for about a quarter of a mile to the north and south -- a half-mile-wide corridor of unnecessary noise is created just so one loud biker can use 24 inches of trail! (Note: Sound travels different distances as terrain changes. We are using the worst case scenario - a ridge trail.)

Billy said, "They keep coming after us. Sound will be the next issue."

"They who?" I jerked around and looked over my shoulder looking for bears, wolves, or mountain lions.

"The government is coming. When they outlawed two-cycle engines, they thought that would close us out or at least make it more difficult. So factories started building better four-stroke motors, and our sport struggles on."

"Yeah, and the sound a four-stroke makes carries a lot differently than a two stroke." I said trying to stay in the conversation.

"Yes, the four-stroke's sound carries differently. But anymore, the snowmobile guys are running straight expansion chambers and can be heard from a mile away. That's a two-mile corridor of noise. I love snowmobiling and ride them all the time, but it's annoying to listen to them all day while I'm at home."

"They have three cylinders - that's 140 to 160 HP! How much more power do they think they need?"

"They don't need more power. It's just like the bikes. It's not the power - it's the rider and the ability to ride well. To the public, any sound that is different from what they are used to is "bad." One loud bike can turn them sour against all riders. It's the same with loud snow machines. Somehow we have to rally the troops and police ourselves."

"If we don't do it, the government will, and I guarantee that we won't like what they do to us. We need to convince the manufactures to stop selling loud exhaust systems. Nobody needs the noise or the hearing loss that emerges from it. We have to get them to sell us good, quiet systems. People just don't realize that trails and tracks are being closed to us because of what's called 'sound pollution.'"

"You know the Speedway guys have gone to quiet exhaust, and they have a new track right in town. Back in Indianapolis, Speedway participants share the parking lot with an exotic dance club, so how much noise are they making?" I asked.

"Hearing loss, land closure, fatigue; these are just a few problems with noise. Sound could be the next battlefield. Did you know they are using money from the Green Sticker program to buy decibel meters? How stupid are we? Are we really going to finance our own demise? If we don't address the sound issue on our own, we will be committing recreational suicide."

I answered, "You know, I went to a desert race the other day. They started in three rows, A, B, and C. The A row was pretty quiet. Most of the four strokes had stock exhaust, and the two cycles didn't stand out as loud. The B row had a couple of loud bikes, but the C row was the noisiest of all three! Most four-strokes had big man exhausts on them, so what we are up against is educating the beginners."

I continued, pretty much rewording what I had just said. It sounded good last time; let's see if I can pass it off as genuine thoughts again. "The expert riders understand that loud exhaust is not good. They know it fatigues them, and the manufacturers understand noise is not good. Manufacturers just build them because the educationally unencumbered buy them, thinking they need the noise. The public hates the sound, and other riders are also annoyed by it. Nobody craves hearing loss, and none of us want more land closures."

Billy continued. "Even on 'closed courses' noise is a problem, if the MX track is bothering neighbors a quarter of a mile away, the government has no other choice but to shut the track down."

"Yeah, they claim the loud pipes are just for closed courses, but they sell them to anyone. The buyers then use them everywhere, not just on closed courses. Just a few moments of noise can sour our potential supporters."

"A closed course?" said Billy. "If the sound travels like it does here in the mountains, then that makes the closed course with a quarter mile radius of angry neighbors. These neighbors don't care whether it is closed course or trail riding. All they know is bikes create sound. They don't like it, and they are going to act against us. Neighbors are going to call the cops; the cops call a meeting; the public gets organized; they come after us, and I don't blame them one bit. We have a responsibility to clean up our act."

I went on, "You know, we had the noise issue going pretty good once the two cycles became water cooled and good repackable silencers became practical. It's only been in the last few years, when the so-called racing four-stroke came back on the scene that noise became an issue again. Most of the four strokes are quiet from the factory. It's the after-market people who are feeding this problem. How do we convince them to stop selling the loud ones and focus on building good quiet ones? If they only would, the problem would solve itself in time. All the loud bikes would soon become outdated and pushed to the barn."

Billy continued, "I'm afraid the ignorant will always want more noise. They relate noise to speed, which is so wrong. To really ride well, you need to be one with the bike. You need to feel the RPM; you need to feel the ground through the tires and the pegs. If the bike is deafening you, how can you feel these things?"

Billy went on, "Even if we get the major manufactures to quit making loud pipes, ignorant companies will start building loud pipes. We need to make sure everyone knows just how uncool it is to be noisy. Michael Lafferty's 450 racer is quiet, so why does Joe Schmoe think more sound means more power. If Michael doesn't need it, why does the C class?"

Billy's passion for riding and the trails was so evident. "We've really got to make everyone conscious of this problem because it is threatening all of our rights to ride. We need to change, and we need to change now. If we don't, the government will continue to force change, and we all hate that."

As I gathered my things to leave, I told Billy I would write a story for the magazine. Most of the readers I know are already on the quiet bus, so it's the uninformed that we must reach. We have to counteract the propaganda that more noise means more power. You are of a higher plane of consciousness, and we need your assistance in educating those who are unconsciously creating offensive noise levels.

We need to start by enforcing noise restrictions at all of our races, events, and outings. Enduro guys do a good job, but the Hare Scrambles, MX, and family crowds could do better. The clubs need to change their rules and stand by them. Riders want to ride, so they will follow the rules and buy quiet exhausts.

Manufactures want to sell. If we as riders and clubs demand quiet pipes, they will produce them so they can sell them. We can go after the licensing organizations like the AMA, FIM, etc., and make them change their sound rules. The noise issue is finally one where we can start at the bottom and work our way up. If riders demand quiet, everyone above us will fall in line.

When I got back to the trailer home, I did a little research on hearing loss. It turns out the ear canal is filled with tiny hairs that change the mechanical energy of incoming sound waves into nerve messages to the brain. Sustained noise like a bike or a chain saw damages these tiny hairs, causing permanent hearing loss. Ear plugs are not always the cure, because some sounds travel right through the skull and cause damage. There is not enough research, but I'd bet a noisy four-stroke bores right through the skull. It does mine.

When I shared this article with Billy, he made one last comment. Apparently, "Einstein once said, 'Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.' Sound does not have to become loud, annoying noise." Billy has a passionate plea, "Noise has to change to a sound level that is acceptable, so go forth and ride quietly."

My advice is to do something now! Write the manufactures, the after-market people and the race organizations to demand quiet pipes. Contact the clubs and demand quiet races, repack your own silencer, and educate your friends and family. Lead by example because our future depends on our making a difference. Like Billy said, if we wait for the government to do it for us, we will not like what they do.

--© 2004 Charlie Williams & Bill Uhl. For comments or questions on this article, the authors may be reached through the BlueRibbon Coalition: 4555 Burley Drive, Suite A, Pocatello, ID 83202. Phone: 208-237-1008, Fax: 208 237-9424. Bill Uhl, Senior Instructor, OHV


Posted by: tax cutter---------------------

Thank you for posting that.


Posted by: Studboy---------------------

Excellent article.


Posted by: rickyd---------------------

Great reading!! Anybody here ever wear earplugs under their helmet while riding?? I just found out last week i have significant hearing loss in my left ear..
Rick


Posted by: G. Gearloose---------------------

Amen, no trouble here!


Posted by: bocephous---------------------

Quote:
Anybody here ever wear earplugs under their helmet while riding??


Both on the street and in the dirt. Wind noise (street riding) has been shown to cause significant hearing loss.


Posted by: Green Hornet---------------------

Great article.I find the loud 4strokes very distracting when riding, due to the way sound travels (Lower frequency travels further). During my first H/S in May, I was constantly looking over my shoulder or pulling over due to the gunnery pipes on some of the 4strokers. To my amazment they were not even close, just sounded like they were on my rear fender. Nothing against a good pipe, but the Loud = Power scene is a bunch of BULL.


Posted by: YZ165---------------------

Good Read.


Posted by: Jackpiner57---------------------

This article has made me think about my own pipe/silencer combo.

I use a ProCircuit Platinum for my 2002 KDX200. It is a thinwall rev type pipe. I use the stock KDX muffler.

The sound out the back is not too bad, but it isn't very quiet either. Because it is thinwall, it emanates sound from the the pipe itself . Overall, it is too loud! Well, unless I let off the throttle and fourstroke it past the houses (which I do).

I am buying the FMF Gnarly Desert which is thicker to see if it improves the problem.

By the way, my bike is not lacking for power with the stock muffler on it. And if I was concerned about the extra weight I could always reduce my intake of beer and burgers .


Posted by: nrvs-nelly---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackpiner57

By the way, my bike is not lacking for power with the stock muffler on it. And if I was concerned about the extra weight I could always reduce my intake of beer and burgers .
Now that's a good point! I love when someone says I can take off 2 lbs of weight by changing to hi perf. parts. Yup good idea. spend $600 on those parts when all they need to do is diet!
Great article. Reminds of a guy who rides with us periodically. XR250 with Big Gun exhaust opened up. You can hear him for miles.


Posted by: mafols---------------------

I've been giving quite a bit of thought along these lines recently. I've refused to put an aftermarket pipe on my last two street bikes because of the noise. I live 1 mile from an Interstate highway and am continually amazed at how easily I can hear bikes with loud pipes passing by. Frankly...I LIKE my bike quiet....the wind is loud enough, I wear ear plugs because of it. I too have significant hearing loss.
As for the dirt...my 04' CRF250X is still equiped with the factory exhaust, but uncorked ( the "Closed Coarse" recommendations) and my 96' XR is waaaay loud with an aftermarket setup. I've been considering a change of noise level. Any one have recommendation on good performance pipes that are quiet? The cork in the CRFX really holds the bike back. I know that FMF makes their Q series but I really haven't heard any good reports on their performance.

Thanks for the article


Posted by: CaptainObvious---------------------

I spent a lot of money on quiet pipes for both my 4-stroke YZ and my street bike this spring. Now, my son's KX65 is louder than my YZF...he's next. I think they are the best mods I have ever invested in because now I can enjoy my bikes knowing that I'm not disturbing others.

Land use issues are directly connected to the noise issue. Anyone who thinks differently probably has a loud exhaust.


Posted by: mafols---------------------

Capt. O....what did you put on the YZF ?


Posted by: glwilliams58---------------------

Captain O again,

What are you planning to do with for the KX65. My son's is way too loud for the neighbors and we have 10 acre lots.

Thanks.

gw


Posted by: KTM Mike---------------------

Hey Mods - this one should be put up as a "sticky" in every single forum we have on DRN!

I was camping with the (extended ) family this weekend. A few camp sites away was some guys with a ratted out old CR250 - end cap totally off the silencer - nothing inside! I was ticked right off - and I love bikes. My in-laws and various others there ALL commented about how loud that bike was, some not knowing I was a off roader - voiced the stereo typicaly "nasty dirt bikers" complaint and several said they should call the DNR etc etc. On top of this the idiots were miles and miles away from the nearest legal ORV trail. Eventually (gee how did that happen?) the DNR did show up and ticket them. Riding stopped - peace and quite returned!

Someone asked about earplugs. I used to do tons of street riding (on a bike with OEM exhaust) - long story short - I have a slight hearing loss in one ear. Keep in mind, this took place over 250,000 miles of street riding though. Once i realized I did have the hearing loss, I started riding with ear plugs on the street. Never a problem with hearing what I NEEDED to. Wind noise was a large factor and this was with a top shelf Arai helmet. Ironically, for some odd reason, I dont wear plugs off road. Perhaps I need to reconsider. The relatively lower speeds off road do reduce wind noise however. A risk with ear plugs might be that we would not be aware of how loud we are.

I to find the 4 strokes behind me always sound like they are right on me - when i look behind - nothin there!

I will likely tick off some Hardley Ableson riders with this next comment - but I find the loud Harely's on the street very annoying - and I think they are contributing to more motorcycle noise awareness of the general non riding public (they see more bikes on the street generally than off road is my guess). So every day they put up with a truely loud Harley blasting past their house, so when they see/hear what is actually a fairly quiet off road bike - they immediately are hyper sensitive to the sound level - regardless of what it actually is.

For us to get this noise issue behind us, we do need to contact the manufactures - and we need to convince our riding brothers that more sound does not necessarily = going faster, or more power.

I read an article some years ago dyno testing a Harley with typical "gutted baffles" and various after market pipes compared to stock. Of the 3 or 4 combos tested, only one yeilded any worth while power change - and in fact all the others actually decreased horsepower in the useable RPM range!


Here in MI to be legal off road you need 94db or less. In a tech inspection for a race last summer my 2000 KTM 300 EXC was sound tested - came in at 88.4 db! (I had just repacked the silencer). My 05 250Exc is every bit as quiet
Off my soap box - time to ride my KTM with OEM ultra quite exhaust!


Posted by: gwcrim---------------------

I agree. This is too good a read to hide in the KDX Forum.


Posted by: CaptainObvious---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mafols
Capt. O....what did you put on the YZF ?


An FMF Q for the YZF. It's quieter than the stock pipe and MUCH quieter than the FMF Powercore it had on it. The Q really takes the "bark" out of the exhaust tone. It did reduce the top end power somewhat (via the seat of the pants dyno) but I picked up some low end power. I'm happy to trade the changes in power for the noise reduction. My YZ has a full-on Eric Gorr 262 kit, so it is not wanting for power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glwilliams58
What are you planning to do with for the KX65


We bought the bike used, and it came with an FMF silencer on it. FMF doesn't make a Q for this bike. I might try to locate a stock silencer on "the auction site". In the mean time, I will continue to repack the silencer with a quality packing material.


Posted by: KTM Mike---------------------

one other quick comment about use of earplugs. On the street I often did very long iron butt type days riding. I found it dramatically less fatiguing to ride with ear plugs than without. The constant wind noise etc just seems to mentally fatigue you. I suspect this would hold true off road. (i cant say I have ever felt the need for it off road however - physical fatigue sets in way sooner for me!)


Posted by: Green Hornet---------------------

"Some not knowing I was a off roader - voiced the stereo typicaly "nasty dirt bikers" complaint and several said they should call the DNR etc etc."

Question-Who and what is the DNR????


Posted by: KTM Mike---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Hornet
"Some not knowing I was a off roader - voiced the stereo typicaly "nasty dirt bikers" complaint and several said they should call the DNR etc etc."

Question-Who and what is the DNR????


Oops - I guess non Michiganders would be confused by that! Department of Natural Resources - those guys that like to close down riding areas


Posted by: Green Hornet---------------------

Oh, Ok, Tree Huggers w/a Badge


Posted by: mafols---------------------

[QUOTE=CaptainObvious]An FMF Q for the YZF. It's quieter than the stock pipe and MUCH quieter than the FMF Powercore it had on it. The Q really takes the "bark" out of the exhaust tone. It did reduce the top end power somewhat (via the seat of the pants dyno) but I picked up some low end power. I'm happy to trade the changes in power for the noise reduction. My YZ has a full-on Eric Gorr 262 kit, so it is not wanting for powe


Thanks Gary


Posted by: Ol'89r---------------------

Excellent post. This is one of the biggest issues facing all of us.

If they couldn't hear us, they wouldn't even know we were there.

I run stock exhaust systems on ALL of my bikes. Never had too much trouble keeping up. Just turn that little twisty thing on the right side of your handlebar a little harder and leave it on a little longer.

Those that seem to think they need a louder exhaust to go faster are making things much harder for the rest of us. Get a clue while we still have a few places left to ride.


Posted by: jaction125---------------------

Great read, I'm gonna post this on some of the street boards I frequent.


Posted by: bikepilot---------------------

Great post:thumbup

I can't stand the loud 4-strokes, or 2-strokes with blown out packing for that matter. I've found that for my uses a stock exhausted 2-stroke with a well packed silencer is fairly quiet (I ride MX and trails, no neighbors near by so I don't have to worry too much). I would like to try an FMF Q but don't have the $145 right now As it is I re-pack the stock silencer often and my bike came with a carbon fiber pipe guard (e-line) which also helps lessen the sound, similar to a double walled KDX pipe, but without the weight


Posted by: XNAGEX---------------------

Does anyone ,other than myself, find that while wearing earplugs that they can ride faster?I find that while wearing earplugs I push myself harder thus I ride faster.


Posted by: Dirtbike Racer 592---------------------

I didnt read all of it To much to read


Posted by: bikepilot---------------------

I always wear ear plugs, but never really thought about being faster with them. Certainly more comfortable and better able to hear what the bike is doing (they filter out much more wind noise than engine noise, especailly for street riding IMHO)


Posted by: SpeedyManiac---------------------

I just found that my bike was getting really loud. Found that a bolt holding the exhaust flange had gone missing. Picked up a new gasket and bolt, now the bike is really quiet.

I had a good laugh about loud bikes when I was racing my XR200R. This bike was bone stock, complete with snorkel in the airbox and baffle in the exhaust. Only modification was barkbusters and thicker fork oil. I managed to beat a lot of people on a bike that NONE of them could hear coming up on them. Only way they knew I was there was when I yelled to move over or showed them a wheel. I can't stand loud bikes, I'm still trying to think of ways to quiet my Gasser, and it's pretty darn quiet already.


Posted by: Dirty Di---------------------

My advice is to do something now! Write the manufactures, the after-market people and the race organizations to demand quiet pipes. Contact the clubs and demand quiet races, repack your own silencer, and educate your friends and family. Lead by example because our future depends on our making a difference. Like Billy said, if we wait for the government to do it for us, we will not like what they do.

--© 2004 Charlie Williams & Bill Uhl. For comments or questions on this article, the authors may be reached through the BlueRibbon Coalition: 4555 Burley Drive, Suite A, Pocatello, ID 83202. Phone: 208-237-1008, Fax: 208 237-9424. Bill Uhl, Senior Instructor, OHV[/QUOTE]


My husband says there is a difference between loud obnoxious pipes and a sweet sounding louder exhaust and I agree with him. I know there are bikes that are really loud and those I could see putting pressure on but eliminating all exhaust systems because they make more noise than a vacuum cleaner is crazy. Why don't we just kick back and plant ourselves on the front porch with a cold one. I guess I don't understand anyone that would go from one extreme to the other just to say they made a difference. My bikes all sound nice and yeah, they're louder but not near as loud as some. If you want quiet, buy a sound proof booth and isolate yourself from reality because there are many things out there I consider much louder than bikes.

Dirty Di


Posted by: ScottS---------------------

read this guys. It works !

http://www.dirtrider.net/forums3/sh...ghlight=snorkel


Posted by: KTM Mike---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Di
My husband says there is a difference between loud obnoxious pipes and a sweet sounding louder exhaust and I agree with him.

Dirty Di


I too can appreciate the sound of a well tuned, "sweet sounding" bike (or car, truck etc.) but if doing so leads to loss of riding areas - it is NOT worth it.

"Loud" and "Quiet" and "Sweet sounding" are relative terms. What is "sweet sounding" to you and I may be obnoxious to someone else. Somewhere there is a point where the sound level of anything crosses a line of what is or is not reasonable. Trouble is, that point varies from person to person.

Sorry to flame on you Di - but I just gotta tell you that to essentially suggest "go loud or go sit in a sound proof booth" is just flat out irresponsible - that is what i expect from a 17 year old kid out to impress his buddy's! What is important to me is that I CAN RIDE - not that i CAN be loud!

ScottS - I to have one of those snorkles (I just added my feedback on it to the thread you posted a link to). good product!


Posted by: Dirty Di---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by KTM Mike
I too can appreciate the sound of a well tuned, "sweet sounding" bike (or car, truck etc.) but if doing so leads to loss of riding areas - it is NOT worth it.

"Loud" and "Quiet" and "Sweet sounding" are relative terms. What is "sweet sounding" to you and I may be obnoxious to someone else. Somewhere there is a point where the sound level of anything crosses a line of what is or is not reasonable. Trouble is, that point varies from person to person.

Sorry to flame on you Di - but I just gotta tell you that to essentially suggest "go loud or go sit in a sound proof booth" is just flat out irresponsible - that is what i expect from a 17 year old kid out to impress his buddy's! What is important to me is that I CAN RIDE - not that i CAN be loud!

ScottS - I to have one of those snorkles (I just added my feedback on it to the thread you posted a link to). good product!


I doubt there will ever come a time when you can't ride Mike and while they may be taking some areas, it really hasn't effected my family because there is a whole lot of desert out west. If I wanted a bike that sounded like a Hoover I would have purchased one but I didn't. Now, I have seen or heard of areas being closed because of environmental issues but I have yet to hear of an area that was closed due to sound. There may be some private closed course that got closed because of issues with neighbors but an open public area like BLM land or a forest, please tell me where sound alone has been the mitigating factor which closed the area to riding. Here in California we are limited to 96dbA for dirt bikes and whether you know it or not, that's loud by any reasonable persons standards. So, when they can't handle 96, does it go down to 82dbA like streetbikes and cages and if that's not acceptable do they cut it even more. Maybe we should just give up and buy electric scooters then the environmental community would be happy as would the old fart that gets his/her hearing aid pegged when a legal 96dbA bike rides by. So, at 96dbA you CAN STILL RIDE AND BE LOUD TOO........

Dirty Di


Posted by: KTM Mike---------------------

Di - I sure hope I wont be impacted by loss of riding areas due to noise - so just to be safe I wont take that risk. Right now there is an issue playing out locally (Northern Michigan) that would have (potentially) OPENED up access that was shot down in part due to NOISE concerns! So noise has impacted me and my family's riding rights. (actually an expansion of a priviledge). Good for you that you and your family have not been impacted however.

You do acknowledge the legal limit of 96 dbAas being "loud" - your prior posts seemed to suggest you should be able to be LOUDER than that even. (you mentioned aftermarket loud pipes either in this post or another similar thread). Your last post seems to suggest that you are coming in at or below that limit. I am very happy to "hear" that! (pun intended!). Here in Michigan it is 94 dbA - a bit quieter. As it stands today, these both are what have been defined as that invisible "line". So I think we all need to try to work within those limits. If we do work within them, I think we reduce the chance of someone taking issue and pushing the limit lower. I would think It is the bikes ABOVE that limit (say a 102 dbA bike) that really push people to want the limit lowered!


Posted by: Dirty Di---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by KTM Mike
Di - I sure hope I wont be impacted by loss of riding areas due to noise - so just to be safe I wont take that risk. Right now there is an issue playing out locally (Northern Michigan) that would have (potentially) OPENED up access that was shot down in part due to NOISE concerns! So noise has impacted me and my family's riding rights. (actually an expansion of a priviledge). Good for you that you and your family have not been impacted however.

You do acknowledge the legal limit of 96 dbAas being "loud" - your prior posts seemed to suggest you should be able to be LOUDER than that even. (you mentioned aftermarket loud pipes either in this post or another similar thread). Your last post seems to suggest that you are coming in at or below that limit. I am very happy to "hear" that! (pun intended!). Here in Michigan it is 94 dbA - a bit quieter. As it stands today, these both are what have been defined as that invisible "line". So I think we all need to try to work within those limits. If we do work within them, I think we reduce the chance of someone taking issue and pushing the limit lower. I would think It is the bikes ABOVE that limit (say a 102 dbA bike) that really push people to want the limit lowered!


Mike, I can't speak for Michigan and I have had to ask a few questions before I got to my present view but lets try this. The test they use here has this little meter that sticks out from the side of the pipe and then they use another meter to know what rpm the bike is at. The problem is that the sound level where the bike is tested is not reflective of the sound the bike is actually capable of producing. My husbands Harley will make the 96 while he is riding and off the throttle cruising as will his KTM while it is just sitting there doing the test. However, neither bike will make it when he is on the pipe. The same holds true for my R6 and the DRZ. While I am just cruising they can all be pretty decent but on the pipe they can peg the meter. So, all do pass the limit but not in reality. If your bike is limited to 94dbA that's good but what is it really capable of. My point is this, noise is the responsibility of the rider and they alone control it so they can also choose an appropriate spot to be noisey rather than doing so right next to a campground or public place that is not pro riding.

This reminds me of people complaining about jets at airports and trains. Problem is they, the jets and trains, were there first and we were riding in many of the areas before some idiot moved in and wanted to change it all for their selfish pleasure.

Dirty Di


Posted by: motometal---------------------

regarding your last paragraph, it doesn't really matter if the complainers are right or wrong. We are the minority. The majority rules, right or wrong. To preserve our riding areas, our bikes need to be on average quiter than they are now. We know what needs to be done, let's do it!

I have started to approach and talk with riders at our local park that have loud exhaust. Some are jerks, but surprisingly, most are very polite and say something to the effect of "I never really thought about it that way". Just talking to people like that, we can make a difference.

Heck, i'm a motorcyclist and I will admit I don't like the fact that some days I can hear bikes from my house and the riding park is over three miles away! There is no reason that I should be able to/have to hear them, they can have fun without making that much noise.


Posted by: 12voltguy---------------------

great read & I run the quitest pipe on my cr250 96db fmf turbine core 2, at races they see that & put the sound meter away and wave me through tech


but what did he mean " when they outlawed 2 strokes" you can still buy a new cr250......... have I missed something?


Posted by: smasheromalley---------------------

Wow great read. I have never for the life of me understood why people thought loud ****ty sounding exhaust was cool.


Posted by: cr80rRipper---------------------

now that im reading this article im concerned myself, about 2 or 3 times a month ill take the silence out of my stock muffler and ride the trails near my house. I usally start the bike up in my drive way and w/o the stock silencer it sounds lound but when i look to see how the people out side reacted to it and they dont even realized it happend. So my question is it ok for me once in a while to ride w/o the silencer? Because honestly is it me or does the deffining(sp) sound of a lawn mower dorf the sound of an un corked tt-r90?


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Quote:
So my question is it ok for me once in a while to ride w/o the silencer?

Why?


Posted by: little Loopie---------------------

AWESOME READ

Growing up as a child my fathers main 'tick' about me owning a dirtbike was the noise issue. Even though he loved the outdoors, he didn't want to take me out with him to enjoy the outdoors and have me ripping up his peace and quiet scenic time on my DB. Kinda sucked for me as a young lad, but I understood his point. We'd be out wheeling/hunting or something and hear dirtbike's rip around un-seen for hours. The first bike he let me own was a KDX because they were the quietest DB he'd ever heard.

I'll never own a load bike because of this, we're not the only ones out there in the forrest either. Even if there is no residential house's near by. In my area, there are TONS of lakes often frequented by people fishing and camping, it's just not worth ruining the noise polution.......I like to take other outdoorsman/women's enjoyment into consideration. Also because of the abuntance of this, I can't just 'put' around these area's, they ARE my riding area's. So I gotta, by my own accord, keep it as quiet as possible.

For every 3db's added the sound pressure double's. So, if people can just take 3db's out of thier exhaust, they will efectively DROP the noise pressure by 1/2!! 3db's ain't much, but it has THAT much effect on whomever DOESN'T want to hear it.


Posted by: Lokair---------------------

I have three points of veiw on this. One I was a sound guy for a lot of bands in the 90's, louder is not always better, a good sound will always sound crisp and get through a messy sound. Great bands use lots of power for thier pa's and then run them in the low range. this makes them run cleaner and will make them sound better(IE tune your bike, a ratty sounding bike will get you lots of unwanted attention even if it is quiet enuff for the specs).

Point two, I am a dragracing nut, But I like my 1970 GTO only be load enuff to be smooth running, smooth running for me has better ET's and less manteince. Now one could disagree and say top fuel is loud and they go the 1320 in the ~5 second range. This is true, But I am not John Force and my 13 second timeslips are very competitive for an all pure stock muscle car. Remember this on the trail you are not out to race and if you are racing , a uncorked exhaust should be the last of your worries unless you are (insert in your mind the best riders name here) . Be a better rider, train, learn the skills to make it to the top, 95%rider 5% bike. You all know someone who can take a steel tank 80 and whoop you on your dream machine.

Point three when have you ever known the government to make things better, if they implement a sound restriction on bikes, they will crush alot of rider trails and even open area's. Sound may not even be the reason , but it well could be the excuse.

Extra point, I am Partially deaf in my right ear, Being a bass player i n metal bands since I was 13. And having a drummer to my right side who did not know the meaning of restraint has left me saying "excuse me" to alot of people who are talking to me. Its not the end of the world , but sometimes it makes me look like a fool(missinterpratation of words has had me put my foot in my mouth more than once).
Lok


Posted by: OLDSCHOOL-MUSCLE---------------------

Dirty Di you are the only person coming out and expressing opinions different to what most people have been saying here, and I agree with you 100%. I am all for responsible use of loud noises, yada yada, otherwise you encounter problems. The diminishing popularity of two strokes, loss of tracks, etc. The main argument being put forward here is that louder exhausts don't necessarily increase power or make you go faster. This in my opinion is besides the point. Most people just enjoy the sound of a louder exhaust. It's the same as cars, people put exhausts on their cars because they sound better, and I for one think theres no sweeter sound in the world than a loud V8. It's just the sweetest sound in the world, the louder the better IMO. I think it's a bit silly and expecting a lot to tell people to go and buy the quiet exhausts. I understand that there are issues of noise pollution, but if having a louder exhaust satisfies you then you should do it. Compare it to cars, whoever heard of a quiet sports car or musclecar for that matter?


Posted by: AssistSuper---------------------

This is an awesome read.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy noise to an extent. I absolutely love the rumble of a loping V8 or a racecar. I enjoy the way the thumpers sound when they take off from the gate and the way the motor sounds while I'm watching a race.

I don't enjoy trying to take a nap and hearing insanely loud vehicles. I don't enjoy trying to BS with someone in the pits and having to yell in their ear because the track is packed with thumpers and I can't hear a thing.

I definately don't like the possibility of the areas I have the priviledge of riding at being shut down due to noise.

It's going to be a pressing issue especially with areas that are growing in population as the rural areas become neighborhoods.

Is my bike loud? Well it depends on how you look at it. I do have an FMF pipe and silencer on my pipe, so it's probably a little louder than stock, but the sound just doesn't carry like the thumpers do.

My next silencer will most likely be a quiet one. Is a little bit of a power sacrifice going to hurt me? No way, I don't race and I can't use my bike to it's full potential anyway. I just like getting out on the track and having a good time. When tracks start getting shut down is what will hurt me.

Would you rather have a quieter bike with more places to ride, or would you rather have a loud 'cool sounding' bike that just sits in your garage because you have no place to ride it?


Posted by: yz450_0506ryder---------------------

i tried ear plugs and a mp3 player
i ride better when i hear the motor rev


Posted by: SVTMc-G---------------------

Thanks for the article. I believe the idea that it's about the rider. Being a musician, if you can't play...you'll never sound good no matter how sweet your extra gear is. Same idea ith the bikes for sure. Thanks again
Mc-G


Posted by: Racerdude---------------------

just a word of advice, dont try to convince a dirt track tuner that sound isnt needed. we have some of the loudest bikes of them all, but its never a problem for us because we race at tracks where cars race, and we are about 1/10th of the noise of a car race. for those of you who want to dispute that, i live 3 miles from the car track where i also race my motorcycle. every friday night i can hear the cars racing from 6-10pm (i love the sound too) i ran home this weekend to get my spare ez-up in the middle of the racing, i couldnt hear one single bike. i have down pipes on my race bikes, sound just isnt an issue for us really in our sport. after all this nonsense i just posted though, i will save face and look responsible. my trail bike will always have a stock exhaust on it, maybe even a q pipe in coming months. i ride a lot at the land between the lakes recreation area, and it has been under the watchful eye for years now. i also have a practice track outside of the city limits where i grew up. when you are in a situation with neighbors and non riders, its not an issue of power, its an issue of you having fun while respecting others that dont share the love of the sport you are involved in. what i have noticed is that since my sport takes place at designated racing facilities where people expect noise, we dont have a problem with our pipes. most motocross tracks are put on an old farm or something of that nature where people dont expect it. it all goes back to the "jet plane" analogy. if you are riding in a place where people dont expect the noise, just ride quiet. and with words from forrest gump, thats all i have to say about that


Posted by: THE J MASTER J---------------------

Ok, This Is Like The Best Article Ever. I Was Looking For Loud Pipes And Posted A Forum On Here About Which Loud Pipe To Get And A Guy Kept Deleting Them And I Asked Y He Did That And The Guy Said To Just Read This Article And U'll See Y I Did That. So I Did And Here I Am Writing About How Good Of An Article It Was. I'm Def Not Gettin A Loud Pipe Now, I'm Gonna Spread This Around To Anyone Who Wants A Loud Pipe. Thanks For This Article


Posted by: RedStreak---------------------

There's nothin wrong with four strokes! But if you own one you just need a good muffler

JB


Posted by: Wolf---------------------

First off, let me just say that I am not looking for a bashing contest a la 2 stroke vs 4 stroke.

Here's my take (I'm on my little soap box now):
I went to the track yesterday to help my son pactice. Fun stuff, as always.
When it was time for the big bikes to go ride, the ground started shaking, and while I'm at the track often, for some reason yesterday it all hit home. 80 % of the bikes were 4 strokes, and that's all you heard. The occasional 2 stroke sounded like a little moped in comparison. No, I did not have a sound meter, I didn't need one.
The noise was insane. I thought I was at a truck pull and should have brought ear protection. That is not to say that it bothered me...hell no, I like this stuff, but I can totally understand that others might not. Hell, if I lived near by and just sat down to dinner, I'd be pissed too! Frankly, now that I think about it, I am pissed! This will ultimately kill our sport. Manufaturers still don't seem to give a rip, aftermarket pipes are expensive and still loud...except for the Q - maybe.
They are shutting down tracks all over the country, they have outlawed operation of ATVs on your own property in many parts of the country, yet no one seems to push the panic button and implement drastic changes in rules and regulations. Hell, I agree with some of the folks that complain...you can not compare a YZF or a CRF or what ever to your lawn mower or weed trimmer anymore. They now are more like cars without mufflers.
So, when my son (he's 9 now) grows up and can only remember the days where he was able to ride and how much fun it was, I'll tell him to thank the idiot manufacturers and the people the bought this crap and didn't give a rip, and the AMA and all the race promoters and whoever else that didn't care enough to step it up and protect the sport.
The 2 strokes seem to be going away - I'd consider this a win for the enviros...
Now all they have to go after is noise, and as of yesterday, I am pretty sure they'll win

(I am now stepping down from my little soap box)


Posted by: cnielse5---------------------

I agree, we really need to cut the noise down. I go to an indoor track in the winter and I HAVE to wear earplugs anymore. It is not Cool to have a loud Bike!


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

We really need to push HARD for quiet pipes ... the days of no R&D at the pipe mfg's, just kicking out loud pipes with minimal performance improvement need to end.


Posted by: XRpredator---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okiewan
the days of no R&D at the pipe mfg's, just kicking out loud pipes with minimal performance improvement need to end.

Indeed. Trouble is you still have the punks who think "loud is cool". I am doing my part to educate the "punks" in my family that stealth is cool.

Now we just gotta convince the manufacturers to give us the lighter QUIETER stuff. I'd gladly suffer a minimal performance LOSS for a large loss of noise. I don't think I'm alone.

Hear me, FMF/ProCircuit/Big Gun/et al? The market is out there. Start the development.


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

I'm putting something together on DRN to get the word out... stay tuned. We sure can't solve the problem, but we can make a lot of folks aware of it. One aftermarket company has already commited to get involved. We're gonna raise a stink and guilt as many people as we can into going quiet. Even Thump


Posted by: cnielse5---------------------

Noise needs to be Preached now and hard before we lose everything.


Posted by: squeaky---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by XRpredator
Now we just gotta convince the manufacturers to give us the lighter QUIETER stuff. I'd gladly suffer a minimal performance LOSS for a large loss of noise. I don't think I'm alone.


You're not, the "noise is cool" frame of mind is ridiculous . I'd gladly step up and help try to educate those who think that the louder the better.

I just put a Pro Circuit T4 (I think...I don't really know...) on my bike, and it does make the TTR louder, but not ridiculous loud, not unnecessary loud. Same with Rooster's WR...he just put the FMF Q (once again I think, I don't know...) on his bike and that quieted his down. The uncorked stock pipe on the WR hurts your brain, literally. I had to wear earplugs when I rode it, but you did suffer serious power loss with it "corked."

so...what do we have to do???


Posted by: jsned---------------------

Last weekend at a district 17 harescramble it was announced that next year there will be sound checks at the harescrambles. This is good. It will be a mess at first, will take time to test all the bikes, somepeople will try to cheat, but it is step.

I hope they do it right, no half-ass testing and letting some people go.

I have a couple freinds that have recently bought 4 strokes and the first thing they did was put a loud pipe on it. Now a couple of them dont race, if they did they would get midpack C class at the next Hare Scramble at best.

They are running what the pro guy they like is using, (brand name wise anyhow). I have been calling them posers lately hoping they will switch them back.


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Quote:
I hope they do it right, no half-ass testing and letting some people go.
If you mean Wardy.. I wouldn't worry about it.


Posted by: ls1cameric---------------------

I noticed the same thing this past saturday at the track. There were a TON of crf's/ yzf's out there and you really couldnt hear anything when those things start screaming. It's freaking LOUD! I can totally understand your outlook and i have to agree. There has got to be something done about the noise or it will ruin the sport.


Posted by: Masterphil---------------------

As much as nobody wants to say it. This was not a problem before 4-strokes came on the market. It's just the nature of a high compression, cammed out 4-stroke to be loud. It's going to take a huge effort and a step away from current muffler design to get these things anywhere close to as quiet as a 2-stroke. I'd love to see it happen, I just don't see it happening until someone big steps up to the plate and forces it to happen.


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Quote:
This was not a problem before 4-strokes came on the market.
Sure it was.... it's the same complaints it's always been. All the 4-t did was change the order the complaints were listed in. Noise is now number one, pollution has been removed. Dust, evevironmental damage, etc are still on the list. Trashed riding areas, riding illegally... it's all still there.

Don't get me wrong, noise is our number one problem and something needs to be done. It starts with the Big 5; they CAN make a powerful but quiet motorcycle. Then it's the aftermarket companies. They toss out stupid-loud exhaust that at best moves the power around and saves a couple of pounds, things that benefit the elite racers and do nothing measurable for the average weekend warrior. They too can mfg a lighter pipe that increases power and is quieter. Problem is? They'd actually have to engineer a product and that costs them more.

Until we as a group put the pressure on, nothing is going to change. How many times have you've seen a young one come on here and ask about getting a loud pipe for his ttr? What's the typical response? THAT is one major thing we can do... "education" We've got to get past the louder is faster BS. When we stop buying the loud pipes, they'll stop making them.


Posted by: BadgerMan---------------------

If you are old enough to remember bikes like the early YZ’s with nothing but a little bulge on the end of the pipe or the TM 400 with nothing but a stinger, you will remember how loud a 2 stroke could be. And, it was the same old mis-informed reasoning……..more noise equals more power. We learned how to make fast but quiet two strokes. Now we need to do the same with the new generation of four strokes. Okie’s right in that if we quit buying loud aftermarket exhausts, they will quit making them.


Posted by: Wolf---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okiewan
When we stop buying the loud pipes, they'll stop making them.


Unfortunately I don't think we have the luxury to wait that long.


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf
Unfortunately I don't think we have the luxury to wait that long.
True , all we can do in the short term is raise awareness and try to convince the young ones (and less informed) to at least run their stock exhaust; a loud pipe will not get them a trophy, or looks of admiration from the rest of us.


Posted by: XRpredator---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerMan
If you are old enough to remember bikes like the early YZ’s with nothing but a little bulge on the end of the pipe or the TM 400 with nothing but a stinger, you will remember how loud a 2 stroke could be.

Exactly. Noise has always been a complaint. How many punks with their ratted out smokers do you still see out there? plenty. Yes, the 4 strokes have increased the noise, but I think part of that is not only people switching to the 4 from the 2, but also some other people joining the sport on the easier to ride bikes. I would bet we've seen a boom in the dirt biking population. More bikes = more noise.


Posted by: 2-Strokes 4-ever---------------------

Good thread..........4stroke OR 2stroke.......stealth is


Posted by: Wolf---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by XRpredator
More bikes = more noise.


I'd agree with that on principle.
Thing is, I don't see more bikes in the motos, I do hear more noise.


Posted by: XRpredator---------------------

I ain't just talkin' moto, Vulf. LOTS more professional practicers out there.


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

shhhhh ......
You guys want to actually do something about it?
Coming soon to a web near you ... a non-profit, get the word out site.
Want to get involved?


Posted by: 2-Strokes 4-ever---------------------

Yes sir


Posted by: ellandoh---------------------




Posted by: JPIVEY---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okiewan
Want to get involved?


Absof'nlutely

D37 went manditory 96 dbs on 01/06 and a lot of tracks around here are headed that way.

Also, we can blame the bike manufacturers and we can blame the aftermaket, but I blame the local dealers who are very aware of the sound issues but will still supply and push the 102 db level pipes to any idiot off the street


Posted by: skull creek mx---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okiewan
shhhhh ......
You guys want to actually do something about it?
Coming soon to a web near you ... a non-profit, get the word out site.
Want to get involved?


With your permission, I'd like to use the "Loud Sucks" moniker at my track - I'll make a banner for the front gate. Once you get the website up and running, let me know and I'll add that to the banner to get more people educated and involved.


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Feel free to use anything ...


Posted by: kawicam125---------------------

didnt honda make the 06' crf250r quieter with the dual-exhaust. i have a friend who owns an 05' crf250r and he said the twins made it louder and more powerful. once again, with power, comes noise. hopefully we'll pull together and push toward queiter exhausts.


Posted by: JWW---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by
I'll make a banner for the front gate. .


T's and stickers would be cool


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by kawicam125
didnt honda make the 06' crf250r quieter with the dual-exhaust. i have a friend who owns an 05' crf250r and he said the twins made it louder and more powerful. once again, with power, comes noise. hopefully we'll pull together and push toward queiter exhausts.
Your friend is incorrect.


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWW
T's and stickers would be cool
There'd have to be a fund-raiser of some kind, no way can I afford to do that.


Posted by: ellandoh---------------------

street bikes help giving us a bad name?? anyone have a thought on that?

ps....they are under scrutiny now also , from what i heard(major harley freak) their days are numbered til catalytic converters etc etc are mandatory


Posted by: JPIVEY---------------------

This is from a local paper South Bay "Daily Breeze"

MUFFLING MOTORCYCLES,

Seems that a lot of complaints have been made in the Palos Verdes, Gaffey and Paseo del Mar area that forced Harbor Area Councilwomen Janice Hahn to have the local Police start writting tickets for street bikes with loud pipes.

Police officers said they did not mind everyone riding and enjoying them self's but some were making life miserable for the locals. Quoting " We don't want to write a thousand tickets" But we will if we have to!"


I say it's about time


Posted by: Jeff Gilbert---------------------

I remember racing at mosier valley one night and I was so far behind everyone in my class, surely I must have fallen, but I was at least a half a lap down. This was when 4 strokes were just getting popular and the tracks were still mainly 2 strokes. I kept getting distracted hearing what I thought was a rider coming up from behind me but each time I looked I didn't see anything. The noise I heard was from a thumper on the other side of the track. The noise would oscillate in and out from such a distance, I never heard the 2 strokes at all.


Posted by: SpeedyManiac---------------------

If someone makes a 'Loud Sucks' T-shirt I'd definitely get one.


Posted by: Masterphil---------------------

I agree that education is the only answer, but when people are willing to run aftermarket cams and bigbore kits in a stock class (CHEATERS), no ammount of education is going to make them run a quieter pipe, "BECAUSE THEY COST HORSEPOWER!!!!!" What we really need, as much as I hate to see some governing body step on everybody's toes, someone to step up. Be it the AMA, or god forbid, some government branch. Things like this don't happen based on education, they happen because a law or rule is enforced.


Posted by: SpeedyManiac---------------------

Maybe something like this?




Posted by: Thump---------------------

couple of ideas.


Posted by: BSWIFT---------------------

Great thread. I'm in fo rwhat I can do.


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

One of the first things we have to do is stop pointing the finger at 4-strokes... they are here for good, bitching about them won't help. Getting people to stay stock or invest in quiet pipes or inserts will.


Posted by: crazydirtbiker1---------------------

no matter what there will always be people who believe that the louder the bike is the more powerful it is.


Posted by: XRpredator---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okiewan
One of the first things we have to do is stop pointing the finger at 4-strokes... they are here for good, bitching about them won't help. Getting people to stay stock or invest in quiet pipes or inserts will.

Amen brother.

We quieted the two strokes back in the day when they were running the stingers with no silencers, the same can be done for the thumpers.


Posted by: Wolf---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okiewan
One of the first things we have to do is stop pointing the finger at 4-strokes... they are here for good, bitching about them won't help. Getting people to stay stock or invest in quiet pipes or inserts will.


I totally agree with that, and have not tried to point fingers at 4 strokes, 2 strokes, whatever strokes.

As far as a sticker goes, I may be able to help. Send me the artwork, I still have some connections in this business.

Unfortunately there isn't a governing body that is capable or has the backbone to stand up for our sport...that leaves it up to us....we have to self police. Raising awareness is a great start, but not nearly enough.
I belong to a club, we have some nice trails and a nice track and we'd like to keep it for as long as possible. So we implemented a 96db rule. We bought a sound meter and are testing tonight and all next week. This was met with plenty of resistance by some of our members...why? because they are not informed. They don't read the paper, they have no clue as to what is happening around them, so they don't get it...yet. It is frustrating to see, cause they are all good guys, but refuse to accept change.
We as the riding community need to realize what's about to happen to us. Don't rely on the next guy to do something about it, cuz that's what he's doing.


Posted by: Chili---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by kawicam125
didnt honda make the 06' crf250r quieter with the dual-exhaust. i have a friend who owns an 05' crf250r and he said the twins made it louder and more powerful. once again, with power, comes noise. hopefully we'll pull together and push toward queiter exhausts.


It is most certainly not any more quiet than an 05.


Posted by: XRpredator---------------------

I think Honda started marketing "quiet" with the 06 CRF250R, until they found out it wasn't

Now they market "balance"


Posted by: cnielse5---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okiewan
One of the first things we have to do is stop pointing the finger at 4-strokes... they are here for good, bitching about them won't help. Getting people to stay stock or invest in quiet pipes or inserts will.

Okie is right. the blame game is not going to help anybody. the fact of the matter is that EVERYBODY needs to keep it to a dull roar.

Wolf also has a good point about the fact that people resist change and are just not in touch with reality.

The reality is that emissions are bieng taken care of becuase of cleaner bikes (4-stroke). and Now Noise polution is the BIGGEST complaint from both non riders and riders. Just Like with bike emissions if we do not reduce the amount of noise comming out of our bike we will live in a reality WITHOUT dirtbikes!

I am tired of hearing 2stroke guys whine about fourstrokes (be it noise, cost of maintenance, or weight). In reality these 2stroke babies are just whining because they are not accepting the modern reality of dirt bikes. People not accepting a change in reality is our real problem.

Keep in mind that this is comming from a 2stoke guy!


Posted by: dante---------------------

guys with 450's do you honestly need more power... do you use it all? Or does the pipe just change the torch curve more to your liking? It seems to me to be pointless to try and make a 450 more powerful... I think part of it is like a pride thing, or guys think they are cooler if everyone thinks, "well that stock 450 just was'nt cutting it, that guy must be FAST!"


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chili
It is most certainly not any more quiet than an 05.
I respectfully disagree ... my ears (theres a disclaimer for ya) tell me the sound from the '06 doesn't carry as far. At any rate, mine will soon be fitted with end caps and inserts to get to 94 db (so they say), a full on test will soon follow.


Posted by: RM_guy---------------------

This is a great thread and I hope we can really make a difference. I put the "Q" silencer on my bike because I ride on some trails near my house and I want to be as stealthy as possible. My wife is sensitive to the noise and she says she can't even hear me when I'm out riding. My neighbor that I ride with has his bike nice and quiet too.

The problem is there are a few other guys that ride that could care less how loud their bike is. One guy rides around his yard on an YZ80 (he's my age--don't ask) and pisses everyone off, including me. I've talked to him several times but he's got the attitude that it's his land and he can damn well do as he pleases. A real A'hole for sure.

Another guy has a CRF450 and rides on a small track in his backyard. He is a good 1/2 mile from me and I can hear it pretty clearly.

These guys are not proactive in land issues and when they get shut down they'll fight it by making more noise with a chainsaw or their tractor or something. There have been a few local practice tracks that almost got shut down for noise but these guys still don't get it.These are the ones that we have to reach and I'll do what I can but it's a hard road to travel.


Posted by: Steve St.Laurent---------------------

I like the idea of the stickers and t-shirts! Start a fund raiser when you get the website going to get them started and then use them as a fund raiser from that point on. I'd contribute to get it started. Then it could grow over time to be able to have banners that could be sent out to tracks and trails that request them - spread the word. I just bought a new old stock 04 cr250 and it doesn't get here until the 20th and the first thing I bought was an FMF Q silencer - it'll be here before the bike.


Posted by: Offroadr---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okiewan
One of the first things we have to do is stop pointing the finger at 4-strokes... .


I agree but you have to remember that the acoustics of the deeper noise from a 4 stroke carries much further than a 2 stroke. from a 1/4 mile away you cannot here a 'normal' 2 stroke but you can a 4 stroke.


Posted by: dirtbikedude---------------------

Loud bikes give me a headache. You can have too much of a good thing. Unless you mandate that everyone wear ear muffs!


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Who doesn't realize that Jay? The fact is, 4 strokes are popular, we all know they are louder. Continually pointing out that they are loud gets us nowhere. They aren't going away.

The question is, what do we do about it?


Posted by: Chili---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okiewan
I respectfully disagree ... my ears (theres a disclaimer for ya) tell me the sound from the '06 doesn't carry as far.


I can't debate that point since my experience is based on being trackside taking photo's, not from being further away on practice days. Once the kid is healed up and he's practicing a bit I may have a different opinion. Overall the bike to my uncalibrated ears seems no quieter.


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

We're going to be testing some pipes/inserts very soon, I'll get some measurements... hopefully I'll be able to find a stock 05 as well.


Posted by: Wolf---------------------

Don't get caught up in a debate about what's louder...that's a non issue and a useless argument.
How about debating on how to reach guys like Mr. Dubach to develop a pipe that will smoke every other pipe and be quiet, and then get the race teams to run it?
How about looking into what the folks at CRD did to get their pipes so quiet? I imagine that if a french company can do it, everyone should be able to.


Posted by: Thump---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf
Don't get caught up in a debate about what's louder...that's a non issue and a useless argument.
How about debating on how to reach guys like Mr. Dubach to develop a pipe that will smoke every other pipe and be quiet, and then get the race teams to run it?
How about looking into what the folks at CRD did to get their pipes so quiet? I imagine that if a french company can do it, everyone should be able to.

FWIW, I got to test one of the CRD pipes and it was quite. It was also obscenely heavy and REALLY made the bike a turd unless you were high in the RPM where it was acceptable but still considerably more sluggish than stock. There has to be a better solution than that because if not, I will stick with loud.

Also, if I remember right, DR. D was trying to develop a pipe that was chambered like the Hush Thrush mufflers for cars. Least thats what he said over pizza a few years back. Don't know what happened to that idiea though.


Posted by: Wolf---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thump
There has to be a better solution than that because if not, I will stick with loud.


I understand that Thump, but I don't agree. If I was an aftermarket company who doesn't really have our sport at heart, I would likely bank on that attitude. If we don't have a quiet light fast pipe available, who cares, they'll all just stick with loud...so why spend the money on R&D.


Posted by: Patman---------------------

Maybe something like the CRD system would be better used in a "dual" setup to balance the added weight a bit and possibly deal with the performance isse? Just a thought.


Posted by: Thump---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf
I understand that Thump, but I don't agree. If I was an aftermarket company who doesn't really have our sport at heart, I would likely bank on that attitude. If we don't have a quiet light fast pipe available, who cares, they'll all just stick with loud...so why spend the money on R&D.
I had an FMF Q on my old YZF250 and thought it was great. It wasn't wisper quiet but it was WAY better than the stocker. It was about the same weight as stock, and only took a little off the bottom. I did not get to test on on the 426 but from my experience with one on the 250F I'd be willing to try one again.


Posted by: Offroadr---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okiewan
Who doesn't realize that Jay? The fact is, 4 strokes are popular, we all know they are louder. Continually pointing out that they are loud gets us nowhere. They aren't going away.


I am not disagreeing or arguing with you, just pointing out how we got in the situation. I agree they are not going away.

We used to ride about 30 miles of trails that was my buddies, the property has close neighbors that we didnt want to tick off. We cringed everytime someone would come ride with a 4 stroke just because of the sound travel. In the woods. a 2 stroke's sound dissapates very quickly.


Posted by: JPIVEY---------------------

Quote:
There has to be a better solution than that because if not, I will stick with loud.


There are pipes out there that will get you below 96dbs, I got my 426 from a 102 ( WB R4 ) to a 93.7 with a WB E series and insert total cost was around 200 bucks

D37 went manditory 96 in Jan 06, 500+ riders with every make of bike under the sun got to or below 96

FMF, WB, Supertrapp all have pipes that will get you there with little or no loss, I actually gained in the bottom to mid range, which was cool by me, I never tapped into the outer limits anyhow


Posted by: Masterphil---------------------

We don't just need quieter pipes. We already have those. People don't buy them because they are heavier than stock, and in most cases lose power somewhere in the rev-range. What needs to be produced is something the same weight as stock or lighter that makes the same power as stock or better AND is quieter. Then, and only then, will your average rider/racer care enough to buy one. The pipe manufacturers are going to have to "trick" most riders into buying a quieter pipe with claims of increased power and reduced weight. Also, not having a $500+ price tag would go along way to helping them sell.


Posted by: JPIVEY---------------------

I must not have paid much attention to the weight, because I didn't notice any difference; The weight ( miminal at worst ) was the least of my concerns, if I have a choice between riding or being told go pound sand because I'm too loud or the area has been close due to exceding sound levels, I'll take the added weight anytime.

Our situation may be a little different out here than it is in your neck of the woods, we have groups that are seriously trying to close all OHV use, either on Private or public land, sound levels plays a part in their quest to do this on private property including tracks, but illegal trespassing is the leading factor and they are using these two issues with great success.

We have to do what needs to be done now, if that means sacrificing a little weight or performance or both then so be it, if we wait till the industry meets our petty demands it will be too late, once an area is gone, it ain't coming back


Posted by: robwbright---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterphil
Also, not having a $500+ price tag would go along way to helping them sell.


It's incredible to me how much those exhausts cost. My buddy checked into a Pro Circuit system for his YZF450 (the yellow one - cool!).

I haven't verified it, but he said it was $1000.00+. Geez. I think he's going to stay with stock. . .

Is it just that the 4 strokes are the current preferred flavor (i.e. high demand), or is there some manufacturing difficulty/issue causing the high price?


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Just another reason to stay stock. A $1,000 dual pipe for my CRF? Not a chance.


Posted by: robwbright---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okiewan
Just another reason to stay stock. A $1,000 dual pipe for my CRF? Not a chance.


My other buddy just bought an 05 CRF250. Turns out there was a $1000.00 rebate on the 05 and the 06 (in part because of the dual exhaust) was $1000.00 more anyway - so he apparently got the 05 for $2000 less.


Posted by: Wolf---------------------

This "stock" thing keeps coming back over and over....on most bikes stock is over 102 dbs and yes, I have more than just my ears to prove that. We tested at our club. Stock is too loud on most, and that falls squarely on the shoulders of the manufaturers. Don't stay stock if you claim to care about noise.


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Baby steps mister .... step one is to get folks to avoid the loud aftermarket pipes. Step 2 would be to get them to spend money to quiet the bike, step three is to get the bike mfg's to ALL make quieter bikes and step 4 is to get the aftermarket to follow suit. Yeah, the stock pipes are too loud.. but they don't make the earth shake and your teeth chatter like a Ti T4!


Posted by: Wolf---------------------

Nah, Okie, I don't think so.
Going by your steps above, step one needs to be on the manufactures. You said it yourself, stock pipes are too loud. If you are dropping 7 k on a new bike you should get a pipe with it that will meet or beat requirements to keep our sport alive. Why should you have to buy an aftermarket pipe just to be able to ride?

Actually, above all steps has to be the fact that everyone needs to realize what's going on and what's at stake....
Baby steps? Look at the rate the AMA is implementing sound restrictions...now that's baby steps...I don't think we'll have that kind of time, though I'd love to be wrong.

Of course this is only my opinion (of which there is no shortage)


Posted by: Chili---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okiewan
Baby steps mister .... step one is to get folks to avoid the loud aftermarket pipes. Step 2 would be to get them to spend money to quiet the bike, step three is to get the bike mfg's to ALL make quieter bikes and step 4 is to get the aftermarket to follow suit. Yeah, the stock pipes are too loud.. but they don't make the earth shake and your teeth chatter like a Ti T4!


I might reverse step's two and three. If the ruling bodies made 96db mandatory for next season with steps lowering it even further over the next 2 or 3 years, all the manufacturers would still produce bikes.


Posted by: JPIVEY---------------------

Actually, I would like step one to be GET YOUR LOUD SUCKS SITE UP AND RUNNING !!!!

Start getting the info out to the masses, info like what is being closed and why, pipe test, known pipes on know bikes that will get you to 96 or less


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPIVEY
Actually, I would like step one to be GET YOUR LOUD SUCKS SITE UP AND RUNNING !!!!


Workin on it!


Posted by: Rich Rohrich---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okiewan
Workin on it!


Quit playing on the net and get back to it MISTER. issed:


Posted by: JPIVEY---------------------

I know you are and I know it will be as benefical to the sport as DRN is

So I'll thank you now


Posted by: 2-Strokes 4-ever---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterphil
We don't just need quieter pipes. We already have those. People don't buy them because they are heavier than stock, and in most cases lose power somewhere in the rev-range. What needs to be produced is something the same weight as stock or lighter that makes the same power as stock or better AND is quieter. Then, and only then, will your average rider/racer care enough to buy one. The pipe manufacturers are going to have to "trick" most riders into buying a quieter pipe with claims of increased power and reduced weight. Also, not having a $500+ price tag would go along way to helping them sell.


I agree........the average joe is weighing out price, weight, and performance. One day technology will have us with all three. (maybe not price) Until then, we must remember that the majority of the public thinks our dirt bikes are loud and destructive..........Commiting to quiet is #1 right now, if the public can't hear us, we stand a greater chance of being not-noticed (good thing). Support for "Loud Sucks", and making the motto seen is a very promising way of letting people know that we ALL care about the noise of our bikes and YOURS. "Threatening the sport we so much enjoy is un-cool!"


Posted by: mxrider76---------------------

great article i use stock exhaust when riding on trails behind peoples houses and when being sneaky


Posted by: Avena Quaker---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okiewan
One of the first things we have to do is stop pointing the finger at 4-strokes... they are here for good

I cannot point a single good thing that those farting things brought to this sport...


Posted by: WoodsRider---------------------

The noise issue has plagued our sport long before most members of this site were born. Long before the current generation 4-strokes were even a thought in some designers brain. Recently I found an original Cycle World test on the '72 Bultaco Alpina. The article claims this bike is "quiet as a church mouse". Now I own almost the exact same bike and out of all my bikes it's the loudest. It's the slowest bike I own, but the noise alone scares my kids... and ticks off the wife. My son won't ride with me if I'm on the Bultaco.


Posted by: y_a_m_a_h_a_2005---------------------

I Totally Agree That The Noise Level Is Way Way To Loud I Went To A Race Track Last Night And The Bikes Were Louder Then The Pro-Motified Sprits.....And There REALLY LOUD!


Posted by: jefpel_1213---------------------

Awesome story, very true


Posted by: Too-Stroked---------------------

I understand the noise issue,but i think it should be enforced across the board or not at all,my friend has an '01 h-d dyna wide glide-it is louder than thunder-if its leagle for him to ride any street any time than i should be able to ride out in the woods or anyplace else,another friend has a mustang with factory exhaust and its way loud.the d.m.v. doesnt do smogg checks when you get plates so people run what ever they want.and i dont want that to change.i like personal responsibilty and respect,but theres no way youre getting mine if im not getting yours_


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Does your friend ride his harley around in circles, staying in the same basic (example a MX track) place for hours on end? Does your friend with the mustang ride up and down trails by campers, hikers & naturalists?

Yup, loud cars and loud street bikes suck too, but... don't pass of your own responsibility waiting on someone else to take their own. YOU'LL be the one with no where to ride and they'll still be going down the highway.

If your friend robs a 7-11 and doesn't get caught, does that make it okay for you to do it?


Posted by: allballs---------------------

ok not trying to piss anybody off but there isn't much anybody can do to make tracks less loud... cause even if they make restrictions down to 96dbs which is as low as you'd wana go... well what im trying to say is you can make ppls exhaust quiet the track is still guna be loud cause of all the ppl riding... not trying to piss anybody off


Posted by: JPIVEY---------------------

We did a test out here, a group of bikes @ 96dbs register 68 dbs @ property line 100 yds away, this is what most property owner are looking for


Posted by: Too-Stroked---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okiewan
Does your friend ride his harley around in circles, staying in the same basic (example a MX track) place for hours on end? Does your friend with the mustang ride up and down trails by campers, hikers & naturalists?

Yup, loud cars and loud street bikes suck too, but... don't pass of your own responsibility waiting on someone else to take their own. YOU'LL be the one with no where to ride and they'll still be going down the highway.

If your friend robs a 7-11 and doesn't get caught, does that make it okay for you to do it?



What difference does it make who you are or where you are. if you have a problem with noise then it shouldn't be limited to recreational noise,i live 5 blocks from one church,4 from another and i work 2nd shift,so i sleep till noon,but every day those church bells go off every hour for five minutes at a time,i am not expecting the churches to stop ringing those bells
because i dont want them expecting me to not ride.who is to say what sound is ok and what is not...not me....and not you! ...have some respect!


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

If I get what you're saying and I may not... it all boils down to this; people hate loud bikes. It doesn't matter what else makes noise, who knows maybe there will be as many after church bells as there are after us, but either way, WE have to get more quiet.


Posted by: wirefryer#85---------------------

It used to be we were 'raping the earth' or trashing the property. Then it was too many ambulance/Lifeflight runs. Then the required protective gear and no alcohol, get gone by 10PM 'cuz we lock the gate around that time.

Now it's become the 'noise' problem.

Boys and girls, it's not really paronoia if they REALLY ARE OUT TO GET YOU!

The Forward Motion HS series I'm involved with has a lively thread going on their site about this problem and will probably mandate a 98db level for next season as complaints have been popping up and they want to be proactive, a positive step to be sure.

They have several test meters available to us and aren't being rude about it, but next year, more than likely, it'll be " Don't Test, Don't Pass, Don't Race"

The crazy part is most of the events are out in the boonies where only the cattle would be annoyed, but all it takes is one whiney 5 acre special to screw it for the rest of us ( They are usually on one or more of the city/county boards or committies' .

But I agree with most, if we can run a decent space program, some American company should be able to make a stealth
pipe/silencer that doesn't weigh 15lbs and doesn't cost an F-n grand to get it (how do they sleep at night? Quite well, apparently!)

#85


Posted by: 2-Strokes 4-ever---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Too-Stroked
What difference does it make who you are or where you are. if you have a problem with noise then it shouldn't be limited to recreational noise,i live 5 blocks from one church,4 from another and i work 2nd shift,so i sleep till noon,but every day those church bells go off every hour for five minutes at a time,i am not expecting the churches to stop ringing those bells
because i dont want them expecting me to not ride.who is to say what sound is ok and what is not...not me....and not you! ...have some respect!


So...........what you're saying is, "I have no real opinion......let's just all be nice." Church bells in my neighborhood are welcome. But a screaming-*ss motorcycle isn't. (my opinion)


Posted by: Bermbanger---------------------

So, check this out. here in oregon the noise limit is 96db and with as much power as some of thes bikes have it doesnt matter what pipe you put on it its gonna get loud. i have a fmf titanium4 on my yz250f with a power bomb. the bikes a bit loud but not like those freakin guys at the sand that sound like they have a hemi running open headers. what are some of your states noise regulations like?


Posted by: wirefryer#85---------------------

Bermbanger, I have no idea what Kansas law requires but I got a feeling that I'll find out one way or another in the next ten years or so.

Harleys' and the 'Fast and the Furious' crowd rattle my my windows in the evening but they're gone in 20 seconds or so, not like them having a Hare Scramble around the block for 2-3 hours plus practice at 9am on a Sunday.

But, if they can't HEAR us having fun, they'll have no reason to bitch.

We need the exhaust community to offer a 'silencer' that lives up to the word!

#85


Posted by: Vic---------------------

I remember someone ( pretty sure it was cujet) a while back posting some pics of a homemade muffler with an interesting design. I think it was for a 2, but it would probably work on a 4. Maybe one of the pipe makers would be willing to mass produce it?


Posted by: BSWIFT---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Too-Stroked
What difference does it make who you are or where you are. if you have a problem with noise then it shouldn't be limited to recreational noise,i live 5 blocks from one church,4 from another and i work 2nd shift,so i sleep till noon,but every day those church bells go off every hour for five minutes at a time,i am not expecting the churches to stop ringing those bells
because i dont want them expecting me to not ride.who is to say what sound is ok and what is not...not me....and not you! ...have some respect!

It is not so much a matter of respect but more one of consideration. Dirt biking is a small sport that is growing in numbers with fewer places to enjoy it. Unfortunately, life is not always fair or even handed. Quieter exhausts can't hurt our sport but loud ones will. Church bells are not even in the same league and I would expect that most people will consider them music, not noise.


Posted by: Vic---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic
I remember someone ( pretty sure it was cujet) a while back posting some pics of a homemade muffler with an interesting design. I think it was for a 2, but it would probably work on a 4. Maybe one of the pipe makers would be willing to mass produce it?



Found it!

http://www.dirtrider.net/forums3/showthread.php?t=26002

Nice to know I still have some functioning long-term memory brain cells.


Posted by: demonrider---------------------

I agree that people may complain and that they are loud but thats one extra thing that makes riding so much fun. I love the sound of "thousands of angry bumble-bees"


Posted by: 2fittyjeff---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by squeaky
You're not, the "noise is cool" frame of mind is ridiculous . I'd gladly step up and help try to educate those who think that the louder the better.

I just put a Pro Circuit T4 (I think...I don't really know...) on my bike, and it does make the TTR louder, but not ridiculous loud, not unnecessary loud. Same with Rooster's WR...he just put the FMF Q (once again I think, I don't know...) on his bike and that quieted his down. The uncorked stock pipe on the WR hurts your brain, literally. I had to wear earplugs when I rode it, but you did suffer serious power loss with it "corked."

so...what do we have to do???

Give up a little power and Put the cork back in the silencer


Posted by: Bermbanger---------------------

So i notice that the majority of the people hear agree loud sucks and 4 strokes are evil and need to be corked. Some bikes only lose a little power when you plug em up like a 2 stroke but other bikes cant get up the hill if they cant breath. so the only reasonable solution is to find an open pipe that isn't freakin loud, but i cant find a decent pipe for my bike that will let me keep up (I use every last drop of power i can) i cant afford to lose any power, so here i am with a titanium 4 pipe that doesn't sound too loud. and i also notice that people here don't think 2 strokes are loud. The 2 stroke around here are loud and annoying and the sound travels twice as far.


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Quote:
The 2 stroke around here are loud and annoying and the sound travels twice as far.
No doubt they can be / are loud ... our very own 2-T test bike in the new Dirt Rider Mag barely made sound, there were 4-T's that blew less sound. Yeah, our 2-T is a ported 500, but still....

I will disagree that the sound of the 2-T's "travel twice as far", it's commonly known that the 4-T's freqs are guilty of that very thing.


Posted by: Evins---------------------

good story


Posted by: kx125412---------------------

Has anyone here ever been to a drag race or NASCAR/CASCAR event? Those cars are insanely loud and can be heard from a long ways away yet they still race, they're not getting shut down.


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by kx125412
Has anyone here ever been to a drag race or NASCAR/CASCAR event? Those cars are insanely loud and can be heard from a long ways away yet they still race, they're not getting shut down.
Why does that matter to us? The problem we have has nothing to do with NASCAR.


Posted by: JPIVEY---------------------

The day someone puts an oval in their backyard for their kids or goes Back country with a napcar, I'm pretty sure they'll run into problems also


Posted by: kx125412---------------------

That wasnt my point, my point is that alot of tracks for the cars are located near homes, as are dirtbike tracks and riding areas but we're the ones getting shut down when we aren't even close to being as loud as they are.


Posted by: JPIVEY---------------------

May have a lot to do with the revenue generated, nascar is big bucks, lots of money is generated, but believe me, if the home owners complain loud enough, they will look for another venue, just as they did Riverside Raceway back in the 80's


Posted by: motometal---------------------

Just thought i'd throw in a bit about the technical aspects here, and what we are up against. Those who don't want any more 2 vs. four comparisons may as well skip this post instead of reading it and complaining...i'm not bashing four strokes here, just explaining some of the "whys".

The situation with exhaust on a four stroke is totally different than a two stroke. Here's why:

On a two stroke, the exhaust is going into an expansion chamber, which greatly slows down the velocity of the gasses, and acts sort of like a "capacitor" in an electrical circuit. Have you ever noticed how the exhaust pulses aren't that strong, yet on a four stroke you can feel the pulse way far back? That's why. So, the stinger just acts as sort of a bleed hole for the exhaust to come out, and yes there is a pulse but it is dampened by the expansion chamber. Another interesting aspect is that in certain situations, a smaller diameter stinger, in other words restricting the exhaust, produces more power...and not just at low rpms. If you look closely at an SST pipe, chances are that you will find that the diameter is slightly smaller. At some point, the piston gets hot and goes poof so there are limits here. A typical silencer doesn't really put much if any restriction on the motor. The "shorty" silencers that are quite popular normally just move the powerband around a bit, "rob peter to pay paul" but the idea that you are "uncorking" some huge cache of horsepower that the factory forgot about is silly.

I think they have known how to make quiet two strokes forever...they just didn't care. Really, it's easy.

Four strokes have essentially a straight section of pipe all the way back, so velocity is maintained. The momentum of these gasses actually helps pull as much exhaust as possible out of the cylinder, which is related to why the diameter of the pipe will change power characteristics. Note that we aren't trying to blow "good" charge back into the cylinder at the last second using reflected waves, like with the two stroke. Also, consider that in a given class the four is going to be larger displacement, and generally bigger is louder. And, a muffler needs to be bigger (and heavier) to be effective. If you are riding a bike that feels heavier than the two stroke that you rode last year, the last thing you want to do is add weight to it, and yes some of that is psycological but this is the perception/thought process. So we are up against higher velocity, more gasses to expell, and a heavier muffler.

Beyond that, my expertise of four stroke exhaust design is limited, maybe someone can add to this. I think there is an effect related to cooling of the gasses as well, but not sure. The headpipe on a modern four stroke will sometimes glow if you ride hard, don't remember the twos doing that but not sure if hotter gasses means louder exhaust.


Posted by: XRpredator---------------------

I think what he's saying is that 2-strokes are inherintly easier to make quiet. But I think a 4-stroke can be made quiet as well, I just hope the mfr's can do it and keep it light.

and inexpensive


Posted by: kelsorat---------------------

AMA District 37 enduro officials have instituted sound checks for at least 2 years. 2006 was the first year that D37 desert races have started sound testing to get the racers used to the procedure. I believe officials only check a third of the desert participants, but at least the procedure is in place.
We have an event every year that is really popular because of its close proximity to civilization. Standing in line for sound check, I noticed alot of bikes failing, and I bet every one of them were casual riders, who just ride this one event every year(District riders are easy to spot because of sticker on their front number plate).
I'm not for enforcing sound restrictions, but I'm of the opinion that if the manufactures don't dump loud pipes, sound levels will never drop.


Posted by: motometal---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by XRpredator
I think what he's saying is that 2-strokes are inherintly easier to make quiet. But I think a 4-stroke can be made quiet as well, I just hope the mfr's can do it and keep it light.

and inexpensive


was it really that confusing? It would have been worse but I got tired of typing.


Posted by: motometal---------------------

Here's my imaginary breakdown of the folks at 100 houses close enough to hear the bikes at an imaginary riding area:

4- motorcyclists and either like the sound or don't care
1- motorcyclist who is annoyed but won't complain
25- know exactly what the noise is but are just happy we are having fun
3-hearing impaired
2-think it's really bad music next door-probably satanic
20-hear it and know what it is but don't care as long as it isn't too often or during sleeping hours
5-don't like it but won't complain because they feel sorry for us since we can't affoard Harleys and have to "settle" for plastic, foreign dirt bikes
5-hate it and want to complain, but figure we are associated with the H ells Angels and fear they may get whacked as part of new member initiation if they complain
10-dislike it but just aren't the type to do anything about it
5-intend to complain but keep putting it off
19-hate it but figure they don't have the right to complain since it was there before they were
1-is only mildly bothered on occasion, and just moved into the neighborhood (the track was there 20 years before he was) but mentions it to his Thursday afternoon golfing buddy, who happens to be on the council/board/etc.

guess what? because of that "1" guy, we just lost our imaginary riding area!


Posted by: 2-Strokes 4-ever---------------------

And..........as soon as the "1" complains and makes it public, the other 39 jump in too.


Posted by: john3_16---------------------

Mirch Payton, Roger Decoster, and most pro mechanics (magazine poll) all dislike the move to 4 strokes...

It's happening because of EPA stuff...Now the sound of 4 strokes has become another EPA issue...This is a gov. engineered phase out of the two stroke...If you still think there are no gov. regulations on consumer goods then you're living in a dream world...The move to ethanol...Gov. regs....Cars must meet CAFE standards gas mileage ect ect another EPA reg....Tax breaks for driving hybrids ect ect...Gov. regulations...


Posted by: Vic---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by john3_16
If you still think there are no gov. regulations on consumer goods then you're living in a dream world...



I thought we were the government.






Posted by: BADASSKX666---------------------

Its Obvious That We Have To Tone The Bikes Down A Little But You Guys Have To Understand That Kids These Days Ride With There Frends And To Them The Louder Your Bike Is The Cooler You Are Im A Younger Rider Myself And Its Easy To See Whats Going On. Most Four Strokes Were Made To Be Enviornment-friendly Atv's Compared To The 2 Stroke Smog Clouds. To Be Honest With You Four Strokes Are A Cleaner Running Bike But They Piss The Epo's Off Just As Much Because They Are Getting Louder And Louder, They Are Starting To Make Two Strokes Sound Like ***** Bikes.
Something Has To Be Done, But Most People Dont Realize This Until Its Too Late.


Posted by: aaron7e7---------------------

In my area we dont have a big issue with loud bikes..but i have been around them.. and you guys are right, it will kill this sport.. so here is my two cents...... If everyone here that wants these manufacturers to make quieter stuff, then write them letters, or call them...im sure if everyone would say something to these guys then they will chance to make their customers happy, as well as everyone else that has to live with us riding. so if everyone stopped complaining and started doing something about it then something might get changed. I dunno, maybe its just me that feels this way


Posted by: motometal---------------------

I don't think most people realize how much sound carries. I just went on a trip to Canada to a fishing resort, which is basically out in the middle of no where. I had my XR and my relatives had utility ATVs with stock exhaust and a KX85 with stock exhaust, which is relatively quiet. They were riding in a sand pit at least 1/2 mile away, I could hear that KX way out in the lake, and also inside the cabin, like it was right next door. It didn't really bother me, but I was actually surprised they didn't say anything about it...after all it is a fishing resort and folks go there to "get away", and really shouldn't have to listen to things like that. It would have been much worse with a larger bike and aftermarket exhaust.

My point is simply that many times the person operating the machine has no idea how many people can hear them, even in a remote area.


Posted by: Ol'89r---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Di
I doubt there will ever come a time when you can't ride Mike and while they may be taking some areas, it really hasn't effected my family because there is a whole lot of desert out west. If I wanted a bike that sounded like a Hoover I would have purchased one but I didn't. Now, I have seen or heard of areas being closed because of environmental issues but I have yet to hear of an area that was closed due to sound. There may be some private closed course that got closed because of issues with neighbors but an open public area like BLM land or a forest, please tell me where sound alone has been the mitigating factor which closed the area to riding.
Dirty Di



The time has come. How about all of Riverside County Di.

NOW, do you see what that attitude will get us?

Some of you people had better wake up to what is going on while you still have a few places to ride. Dirty Di's attitude is exactly what is costing us our riding areas. And that includes the desert.

And motometal is correct. It only takes one person to talk to the right City or County council member to get an area or entire county shut down. In the case of Riverside county it was a lady who was knocked down by a couple of riders and complained directly to Supervisor Buster. This was after many of us attended multiple boreing meetings with the planning commission over the time span of one year. When it went to the Supervisors, they voted it down.

I would much rather ride a bike that sounds like a Hoover than not ride at all.

And Racerdude.

I'm a long time dirt track tuner and racer and I can name several race tracks that were shut down due to noise.

Sorry, but none of these arguments for loud bikes fly with me. Get a clue before it's too late.

Ol'89r


Posted by: kamchuka---------------------

i agree, i work on a few of my friends bikes, which inevitably turns into there friends and so on. i've been in the woods for a shy 30 years now, and nothing bothers me more than these beer drinking gear heads that think noise translates into power.
let me say i enjoy beer and power hell i've been in trouble enjoying them at the same time (not dui) but these guys you see with the pipe off doing wheelies in the parking lot with no helmet and a bottle of jack in one hand piss me off.
i'll be cursed im sure for my words, but whatever.
by the way, i got my first county complaint for my track in my yard last week. my kids ride bone stock small fours, and my rm is set for the woods with the quitest pipe i could find, 93 bds last time. so i'll say, with risk of putting my foot in my mouth, i dont think well ever please em all.


Posted by: JWW---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impro250
Some people can barly afford the bike never mind the aftermarket pipe..Plus this sport will never die, the companys can always come out with bigger and better things. Plus its not the sound that im worried about for the tracks, its the the building on riding land that i would be worried about.


1- They should only ride where designated or buy a properly equipped bike

2- The sport on its own wouldnt die but us ride loud clapped out bikes will force it to die or limit it so severly that its no longer fun. The companys need to come out with the bigger and better stuff now.

3- You should worry about the sound around tracks. A couple years ago they did a trial run with a mx track in the middle of a horse racing track at our local fairgrounds. It had alot of support and even sound tested bikes before letting them in. With all that they still were closed down because of noise.


Posted by: weimedog---------------------

I can't help but chime in a little.

We hosted two AGP's this year. They are two day events...Bikes day one and Quads day two.

After BOTH events, my neighbors around the area;...even the nay sayers said Saturday was hardly an issue..they hardly heard the bikes. Sunday on the other hand was different. The neighbors objections to our second race that got a little politically ugly were about the Sunday event on the first race. Primarily four stroke quads.

Now understand I have learned to appreciate the Quads and as I wrote in the "Quad Revelation" Post in the "Off Topics" Forum, that the Quad racers especially Chris Borich made a very positive impression on ALL that came in contact with them.

The one thing that might keep us from being able to host another race here was the neighbors complaining about our SUNDAY events..(Not the Saturday events!!) This is Imperical data for anyone who might want to understand what we are up against as a sport.

If I can prove the Quads will be as quiet next year as the Bikes...the Town will welcome our race with open arms. How do I do that???

Suggestions please.

We really enjoyed the Quads.

As I posted in another forum there is an awsome helmut cam of the first Quad Race at out place....(www.thequadbuilder.com)

(weimes aren't "muts" but we can't spell worth a damn!)

My thing is this:

Motorcycles have LESS space to work exhaust issues around. They are narrow and no one wants a burned leg. Quads have SO much more room to work with..why do they have to be louder than the bikes? Scotty Rich and his new fourstroke Kawasaki KX450
blew away the motorcycles and Chris Borich did the same for the Quads...but it was the First race of the day for the Quads ..not the pro race that the neighbors noticed was so loud.

I think sound tests as Enduro's and some Hare Scrambles are required so we can keep our place accessable to Quads and the New Four Stroke Motorcycles.

This is real.


Posted by: Steve210---------------------

ha, yea good article. I see your point, noise doesnt mean power, but personally i lik noise. I have a kx 85 right now, and its not bad for noise. I dont see whats wrong with a little bit of noise though. Like my friend and I went together the other day and he has a yamaha 660R and he has a pro-circuit T-4 on it, and i love the sound that thing makes. I see what u mean though how noise is annoying and stuff, and its not good for my hearing, but i love the sound of hearing a fourstroke opened up and hearing it like a mile and a half away. I donno, thats my opinion, i like noise...


Posted by: weimedog---------------------

Problem isn't whether you or I like noise, its the local population who has the political power that doesn't...and they can thru legal and political activities take away your places to ride...end of noise.

I am fighting to keep my place as somewhere Quads can race x-country and have fun. If the town decides the QUADS were too noisey...our place is no longer going to able to hold events. End of discussion.

Fortunately the events here were two days...motorcycles saturday quads sunday. The locals LIKED the motorcycles and even the worst nay-sayer has publically stated Saturdays was find..didn't hear anything. It was the Sunday AM races that has me in a bit of a struggle.

You want to have places to play???? Keep it quiet for the surrounding neighbors so the don't have a reason to shut down your play ground.

Some noise from the "backyard"
http://www.thequadbuilder.com/videos/Logan%20Farm.wmv


Posted by: Nutty Professor---------------------

Hi Everybody, I've just arrived back in 2006 for a holiday with TimeTravel Inc. We've been everywhere else in the galaxy so we decided to come for a retro holiday.

As a keen motocrosser I've had a good laugh at this thread.

By 2010 all four stroke bikes had been banned because of noise factors as they needed low back pressure exhausts to make good horsepower, plus they won't run on Envirogas anyway

However two strokes. which require back presure to make torque have flourished. Since Eurobike started making bikes (when Husky, KTM, TM and Gas Gas merged in 2008) the fuel injected, no oil two stroke is the way to go.

Of course the great FIM scandal of 1999 was discovered in 2007, where the major factories had induced the FIM into setting up a set of rules where two strokes were deliberately given no chance against bikes twice their capacity.

It was a great way to increase profits, making bikes that were worn out after one season of racing and required a mountain of parts and maintenance.

When I first started racing on a LEM 50 I can remember all the big race bikes were so loud, thank heavens four strokes died out, I don't know how the old timers could stand the noise. Nutty.


Posted by: motometal---------------------

that's the most entertaining post i've read for a long time.


Posted by: wchum---------------------

No we are not killing our sport! It the best it's ever been. We have the best tv ratings.. Best crowds at races etc. Four strokes need to get quieter I agree but there is tech out there that will improve on this and is only time away....

But as soon as 2 strokers stop riding their 4 strokes like 2 strokes and down on the bottom of their power band. The bikes get quieter and last longer etc... So, we are dialed for a great future as long as we continually improve the pipes.


Posted by: Shadowpillar---------------------

For offroad, the noise is ridiculous and stupid, there's no reason.
When you're on the road (if you have an enduro like me, or own a bike like a Harley) noise is good because noise is what protects you from lunatics with their huge SUV's Bad enough if you're on the freeway with a car you almost get hit because some idiot believes they're too important to use the turn signal, or even care if people are next to them as they decide to drive on impulse. Having a loud bike on the road alerts them that you're there. Most bike accidents I've seen on the freeway have been with the quieter bikes, I've rarely seen a harley or an equivalent bike.

If you live in So Cali, you'll know what I mean, where many places to go offroad are now no longer accessible by those who do like to go offroad, unless you go an hour and a half into the mojave desert to some dry lake bed. Hesperia used to be a great place to go but suburban sprawl happened, but that's another subject for another day.

So loud can be good, but only where needed, like the open road. Offroad, it's unnecessary, but it isnt the only reason it's being outlawed either, In dusty, dry dirty areas, offroading tends to kick up obscene amounts of dust. The only solution to that I can think of is bringing out a truck with a 1000 gallon tank of water and spraying down a pre-determined area to ride in (enough to keep the soil moist but not muddy)
For many that doesnt work.

Part of this you can blame on the fact it's getting harder to find open land that isnt protected or near a growing suburb full of the same people who would move into houses built next to a dairy and complain about the smell.

In the end, it's multiple factors killing the sport, the noise is one thing that can be fixed though. Arent there mufflers that can be put on these bikes to reduce the overall noise? I know some idiots like taking the muffler off and having all exhaust come out of the spark arrester, which one of my friends does because he thinks noise is cool. (his bike is otherwise quiet.) So why dont these arenas disallow this kind of activity if they dont already?


Posted by: motometal---------------------

loud pipes don't generally save lives on the road, they just annoy people and make others think you are a jerk! The exhaust goes behind you where you don't need the noise, not in front of you where you need people to hear it. The most common type of accident on a road bike is someone turning left in front of you, a pipe won't prevent that.

I'm sooooo tired of all the loud street bikes in my neighborhood, it's so lame. I think some of them are trying to make up for a lack of endowment elsewhere.


Posted by: ellandoh---------------------

the new cingular wireless commercial isnt doing us any favors


Posted by: fox rider---------------------

I have a YZF and i have a power bomb header on it and a fmf power core 4 on it, i find it way to loud, in terms of power, i dont notice a differnce. My neibors who are 5 acres away say they can hear my bike start up, and say it is really anoying.


Posted by: Solid State---------------------

If the bike is marked "for closed course competition only" then riding it anywhere but the track is a bad idea - 2 or 4 stroke. Speaking in general terms, neighbors don't like them no matter what - even with a 'quiet' muffler. Obviously, competition 4 strokes are way more obnoxious - no sane person would argue that.

I swear, just having fun on your own property seems to annoy some people nowadays. I always feel guilty when I fire up my bike for a 10 minute ride around the lot (3 acres) and its a completely stock 2 stroke. I do it very seldomly now. The only prohibition written in the neighborhood covenants is for dirt bikes. Most people hate them. The 4 strokes are the icing on the cake IMO. I don't like racing against them because, all things equal, they seem to be easier to ride (and thus stiffer competition) and the noise and smell takes some of the fun out of racing. I'm not sure why, but the 4 stroke exhaust chokes me and the 2 stroke doesn't. That said, I have considered my next purchase being a 4 stroke so I guess I'm just like everyone else.


Posted by: mex_ros---------------------

Well my bike sounds really loud, i have a Remus exhaust without a silencer but i live i a country where everybody has a loud exhaust even on cars.
As for my neighbours...i never really liked them


Posted by: ZeCatfish---------------------

Harley riders run loud pipes cause they say "better heard than dead" so they're not about to change and with all the harley clone shows out there thats not about to change.
One note about noise. I live 1.5 miles from a quad TT track, they don't race every weekend about 4 times a years. Theres a ridge between me and the track. I bet every squid pod there thinks its cool to have the loudest engine there. You can here t he 4 stroke drone without any trouble.


Posted by: zaz696---------------------

The sad thing is the 07 4t's are louder than ever. A guy rode with our group last week with an "orange" 450 and a $700 titanium can on it (according to him). It was so loud I could not even hear my 605 over it (I changed mine to a Q silencer). He soon overheated, however and had to turn back about 30 miles in. The noise from that bike surely cancelled out any efforts the other 5 of us had made to quiet out bikes. What a waste!


Posted by: lefty20---------------------

i have an fmf factory pipe and its very loud actuly,i agree but 2 strokes can be pretty loud too,i think all pipes should be quiet but all manafactuers care about is more power and more money...maybe less weight,nothing about noise


Posted by: destructo---------------------

I'm kind of torn because when I ride by myself I usually use the the quiet insert, because I mostly just ride for the pure love of riding, but I have noticed that when I ride with my buddies I take the insert out and have a whole lot more torque in every gear and can keep up better or in most cases leave them further behind on missile launch woods runs. Now I have a BIg Gun full system on the way, luckily it comes with the quiet insert so I guess it'll kinda be the same?


Posted by: Moose---------------------

Here are your options.

More power now + louder bike = No riding later

Less power + quieter bike now = More riding later




Posted by: hangtown---------------------

When we stop equating noise with performance we will start to win the battle. We are accustomed to buying a pipe for our new thumper, one of the performance investments pls rejetting and we eek out a bit more speed.

I just put a pro circut on a yam 450 and with jetting it made a difference but the pipe is loud, which has always been the price for performance, well not any more. We as a community have to be aware of where we ride and not piss others off!!

We ride at tracks with restricted hours, well away from homes and generally out in tim buck too, so no one cares yet, not to say thay won't as population increases.

Once we have performance and silence we will have the issue beat.


Posted by: endofsilence808---------------------

soon you wont have to worry about ridin areas. you will get to rev up 4strokes in your garage. BUt hey! at least it will be loud and have more power that most humans wont even need anyway. Performance shouldnt even be a factor. Todays bikes have so much perfomance that only 3 percent even use them to the full factor. They need to find a cure for not the noise, but the squids.


Posted by: sgifford---------------------

My neighbors don't mind when I or my sons go for the occasional ride on our property on our quiet 4-strokes. A couple of nights ago I could hear a couple of 4-strokes and one 2-stroke racing around the streets of our semi-rural neighbohood. All very loud. I'm guessing they were early Christmas presents. It won't take much of that noise to have all their neighbors ticked-off.

It's incredible how short-sighted the manufacturers are on this whole issue. This includes the aftermarket. Sell more loud pipes now at the sacrifice of the future. And while I too would love a little more 'rip' in my bike, the story that started this thread is dead-on; it's the rider, not a small percentage increase in power that makes you fast.


Posted by: MX86---------------------

take this for example. the new 4 stroke aftermarket pipes are loud. yeah no doubt. but what happenes when ya line em all up and they rev out for the start loud eh? and that's outdoors. now imagin them inside a closed dome... where is that sound going to go? i went to a race when they were still holding it at the HHH metrodome.. you needed ear plugs up in the nose bleed section.. no offence to ya 4 pokers but that stuff is just getting down right irritating...


Posted by: Croft315---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by hangtown
When we stop equating noise with performance we will start to win the battle.


Agreed. Anyone who doesn't believe this should watch some MXGP or equivalent European videos (or better yet go watch a race there!) Bikes and riders are top level performers and quiet!


Posted by: endofsilence808---------------------

the last time the metrodome had a supercross there, i wanted to leave, it was so loud and lame. I am a die hard moto hound btw and I thought it sucked.


Posted by: Solid State---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by wchum
But as soon as 2 strokers stop riding their 4 strokes like 2 strokes and down on the bottom of their power band. The bikes get quieter and last longer etc... So, we are dialed for a great future as long as we continually improve the pipes.


That's it. Blame the 4 stroke noise on the 2 stroke/ers!!


Posted by: angryneighbor---------------------

I own and live on over 50 acres in a western state and one of my neighbors owns around 3 acres and he lives in a nice neighborhood in town. He and his friends have built a mx track that covers every inch of his property. He allows anyone who wants to ride on his track. They told me they where building the track for little kids to ride on and I told them that it would be ok if they kept the noise and dust down. They quickly built a track with triple woops and giant jumps that are too big for the little kids. The track attracts lots of bikes of all sizes and sometimes the big bikes take over the track and the little guys ride on my . If they did not have a track I might consider letting the little kids ride but the track is noisy enough and I don't owe it to the parents to provide a place for their kids to ride and I don't want the liability if someone gets hurt on my property. Some people even ride without proper gear and no one around to help when they crash. I have seen a few ambulance out here.
My main complaints are noise and dust. I have had the police out here many times (the track and my land are out in the country yet within the city limits) . The police have been inconstant with noise inforcement. Most of the police are friends with the riders or are riders themselves. I have been threatened by some of the riders including one "pro" rider who owned his own shop. I usually carry a loaded .45 handgun when I talk to any riders now. When I tell them their bikes are to loud they tell me they are on private property and it is imposable to make thir bikes more quiet. Almost all of them are running aftermarket pipes and they purposely bought into the "louder is better" myth.
Yes, many Harley Davidsons are as loud as the dirt bikes BUT, the Harley riders don't ride around in circles gunning their engines for hours on end. They rip by in packs sometimes but soon they are gone. The dirt bikes go on and on and on. They sound like they are machines arguing on and on for hours, each one just has to get in the last word and than the others respond and it never ends. (much like this post) .I can hear them inside my house and I cannot enjoy being outside on my own property when they are riding.
HELP ME AND THE RIDERS!! Now I am asking you riders for advice in getting them to quiet down their bikes. I am a normally tolerant person but after I hear the endless drone for an entire afternoon I have considered waiting for a nice muddy day and paving the track with broken bottles. I am sure I can gather a pickup load from the dumpster behind any bar on a Sunday morning. Think about it ... how would you like to go to your track and find that?
Take a moment to put yourself in my place. I paid quite a bit for my property and now I can't enjoy it. I have tried talking to the riders but they are selfish jerks and don't care who they disturb as long as they can raise hell out here and then go home to their little houses in town. I have told them that if they want to ride here they should put their money together and buy me out and they say they would not want to live "way out in the middle of nowhere" .Their wives let them buy expensive trucks and motorcycles for the whole family on credit but they can't buy their own land in the country. I consider them country wannabees and posers, not real country men and women.
The track owner will not answer my phone calls. Give me some ideas before I start gathering bottles. HELP!!
I know most of you will not like my tone...give me a better way to deal with the loud bikes and I will be a good neighbor and not the ANGRY NEIGHBOR they have provoked me to be.
Also think about this...how do the neighbors like YOUR track????


Posted by: 2-Strokes 4-ever---------------------

I am sorry...........truly. If we were neighbors, I'm fairly sure we could work something out. #1---quiet bikes. However, the whole ".45 handgun" thing is scary stuff.
"You will never recieve kindness from someone you're angry with."


Posted by: angryneighbor---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2-Strokes 4-ever
I am sorry...........truly. If we were neighbors, I'm fairly sure we could work something out. #1---quiet bikes. However, the whole ".45 handgun" thing is scary stuff.
"You will never recieve kindness from someone you're angry with."

Yes sir, I hope the locals will find this string and think things over. I try to treat each individual as a individual thinker. More than once I have had a rider pull of his helmet and found a person that I have known and got along with for years. this is a small community and often run into the same people all the time.
Part of the problem is that as a whole they are united and the loudest mouth speaks for the group. We all know how a "us VS them " mentality can develop when one man has a difference in interest with a group who are strongly bonded by a mutual interest and activity. These guys ride together, buy and sell bikes and parts, and work on each others bikes.
About the gun, I hope I never have to fire at a human. I have stood among the riders and police with my sidearm in clear veiw and the police have made no comment one way or the other about the .45. It is perfectly legal in this state. I have been warned by an old friend that at least one of the riders is a real hothead and has even assaulted other riders for little to no reason at other tracks. Some of the riders are known Meth. users and dealers. Would you want to fight a group of meth heads alone? I have to go back to work to support my family on monday so I don't need to get injured or killed on the weekend so I carry a gun. I hate Meth, it has changed the lives of far to many people, even those of us who do not use are affected.
I am listening to you with an open mind, riders.


Posted by: Solid State---------------------

angryneighbor,

In my experience, the neighboring land owners can and will easily shut down a track. There's always a land use, noise or nuisance ordinance that does the trick. Just look it up - I'm sure its there. Hit the owner with it and he's hosed. You could at least use it to force him to come to the table to discuss a resolution. Don't go the violence route. Just use common sense. There's no need to feel imprisoned on your own land. Use the law and work it out.

Good luck


Posted by: motometal---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by angryneighbor
Yes, many Harley Davidsons are as loud as the dirt bikes BUT, the Harley riders don't ride around in circles gunning their engines for hours on end.


Really? Hmmm....I guess you haven't been to MY neighborhood!


Posted by: motometal---------------------

I appreciate your viewpoint, and am glad you posted. Good getting the perspective of someone on the other side of the fence so to speak.

I'm sure you didn't mean to, but be careful with the correllation between the meth and the dirt bikers. I guess to me, that's an issue independent of the noise, and independent of the fact that these guys ride dirt bikes.

Sadly, meth is a real epidemic in some areas, but I assure you that it's used by folks of all demographics and folks with all types of interests. Maybe there are guys riding on your neighbor's land use meth, but there are probably guys down at the stock car track, the golf course, and the swimming pool that use meth as well.

If you really think these guys are carrying or dealing, by all means call the cops. But if you are wrong, things could get a notch or two uglier...


Posted by: adam728---------------------

Loud is over rated.

I put an FMF Quiet Q on my KX125 for a hare scramble last weekend.
It still seemed a bit loud compared to the KDX, so I bought a bunch of UNI course air filter foam (2" thick).
I figured the foam/aluminum would dampen sound, and it sure did. I noticed no change in power, and the bike quieted way down. At 5800 rpm I registered 78 dB's using the SAE J1287 test. The three of us there kind of scratched our heads and they did it again, and again got 78 dB's.

Now, when I get it on pipe (8K+) it's still fairly loud, but I think a large majority of that is resonating from the expansion chamber. A custom pipe-guard may be in order. I had the quietest bike of the day, and probably the highest test rpm too. I'm not sure I really trust the 78 dB number, as many people were claiming to be 2-3 dB's lower at this event than the last one, so the mic could have been off. But there were still a good number of people barely making the 96 dB cut, even with quiet insterts and everything else. So even if the number is wrong, the bike is still darn quiet.

The point is, quiet is better for the sport and a fun challenge. Like many stated above, it far more rider than bike. After I got my arms back during the race I was able to make many of my passes in the deep sand washes in 4th & 5th gear, getting past a number of bigger 2 strokes and at least one 450f. Imagine, an 8 year old 125, basically stock (besides quiet mods), able to pull in bikes with 1 1/2 times the power (or more) in a suituation that demands power.

Now if I can only make it quieter. I'd love to rip past some cannon-blast-loud 4 stroke in almost complete silence.


Posted by: 2-Strokes 4-ever---------------------




Posted by: zaz696---------------------

Quiet silencers won't help this idiot. I don't care if you have a 50 cal sniper rifle at your side. You will shoot someone, then spend the rest of your life in prison regretting the stupid act. Also, I'm sure the other riders you can't shoot will find a good place for your "45" (where the sun don't shine). If you need a side arm to deal with a bunch of kids riding dirt bikes, you are a wuss, an idiot or both.


Posted by: CRASH39---------------------

What is the difference between that and race cars? Seems it is always quick to point the finger at the dirt bike or ATV. I notice this. I get loud street vehicles that drive by me. I guess it is ok to have a turbo muffler on a want to be fast an ferious neissain but cut the line on the dirt bikes and ATV. I personly rather hear the dirt bike over that..besides whats a sport with out loud? haven't seen a quit one except golf...( don't care for golf, too boring..)


Posted by: Jwholetsdothis---------------------

I just realized my 4 stroke is way to loud.



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