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when a 250cc four stroke has the power and responce of a 250cc 2 stroke
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Posted by: john stu---------------------

then i still wont be impressed !

even if they made a 250cc four stroke just as fast as a 250cc 2 stroke i still wouldnt buy one just because the engine has 10 times as many times the parts to fail and trust me if you ride dirt for long the day will come when your bike seizes,blows up,or you just fall over in a stream or just suck in some dirt....something is going to happen someday to your dirt bike (unless you dont ride it)and when it does my cr500af will just get bored to the next oversize and get a new wiseco piston (maybe crank bearings if its bad) all fixed hell my bike doesnt even have a power valve theres only a couple of moving parts in the top end the piston and rod lol........ good luck fixing your four stroke valves,cam or even "cams",cam buckets,shims, retainers,springs,hot start,acellorator pump,cam chain,cam chain adjuster,soon to be fuel injected with sensors and computers and batterys fuel pumps can you say $$$$$ chaaaaa ching $$$$$$ sure four strokes are smoother with less hit but to be honest my bike is ported buy eric gorr (with his mo-better and it starts pulling right off idle with not much hit at right to the rev-limiter and it eats 450's for lunch..........and does it with total relibility with hardly any maintance and the best part if it does ever break for what ever reason its inexpensive and easy to fix.........why the nasty coments on four strokes? i was just thinking a few years back when i had a yz426 and the wrist pin failed after just 1/2 a season of riding and how much it cost me to fix.......thousands and i never over reved the bike (never hit the rev limiter unless i hit neutrul and always shifted in the middle of the power spread) and changed the oil every ride and cleaned the air filter the same ,i never found out why it happened. sure my cr could seize for no reason at any time too but least if the bike is a few years old it wount be more money to fix the bike than the bike is worth

Posted by: James---------------------

Feel Better?

Posted by: TRIS---------------------

With Equal Displacements 2 Strokes Will Always Win Hands Down......forever!!!! Open Class Ha Haaaa!!! Pickup A 650cc 2 Stroke And Your Sorted.

Cheaper, Faster, Less Complex, Lighter, Dont Make Loads Of Noise, Rip!!!!!

4 Strokes Are For Planting Corn, 2 Strokes Are For Racing!

2 Stroke4life

Posted by: Josherichy---------------------

2 strokes, you have to love when a 250 or a 500 rips up a hill... BRAP!

Posted by: XRpredator---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josherichy

. . . you have to love when a 250 or a 500 rips up a hill...

no I don't

Posted by: Octane250F---------------------

What do you mean "when" a 250F has the power and reponse of a 250 smoker? The 250F already does!
I get a kick out of some people who think that a 2-stroke is so much cheaper and more reliable than a 4-stroke. Ive been involved in various forms of motorsport in my life and the common opinion is that 4-strokes are more reliable than 2-strokes. Id love to hear how dirtbikes are an exception to this rule.
2-strokes are for leafblowers.

Posted by: BadgerMan---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Octane250F

What do you mean "when" a 250F has the power and reponse of a 250 smoker? The 250F already does!

Which 250 "smoker" are you talking about? Have you ridden an '06 YZ250? You certainly can't be refering to that "smoker". As good as the 250F's are they are no match for a good running "smoker".

Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

None of it's going to matter when there are no new 2-strokes to be bought....

Posted by: Moose---------------------

4 strokes are over taking the racing world. my next bike as well as alot of other people I know, is going to be a 4 stroke. it's just something you're going to have to face, 4 strokes are more prone to racing.

Posted by: Josherichy---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRpredator

no I don't

4 strokes sound like many farts! Wats there to like about that IDK

Posted by: XRpredator---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josherichy

4 strokes sound like many farts! Wats there to like about that IDK

What's not to like?

Posted by: gwcrim---------------------

Guess Pred likes the sound of flatulence. Probably likes the smell too!

Posted by: nephron---------------------

I enjoy both and would like to keep the 2 stroke alive. But as Okie's pointed out, they're going to either become extinct, or their evolution is going to fall flat. At least for now.

The solution to this problem is to get a 500. It'll last 2 decades on the same jug, and has more damn power than you can ever use.

By that time, maybe 2 strokes will make a comeback, if not just for their simplicity, which I really, really like.

Posted by: john stu---------------------

the only.............ONLY reason four strokes even have any chance is because they are allowed double the engine size thats why they are taking over the races.........if you could run a 250 two stroke in the 125 class do you think many people would be racing 125's?

Posted by: XRpredator---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by john stu

the only.............ONLY reason four strokes even have any chance is because they are allowed double the engine size thats why they are taking over the races.........if you could run a 250 two stroke in the 125 class do you think many people would be racing 125's?

plus, they're more fun to ride than a detonating, smoke belching, pipey, narrow powerband 2-stroke.

Posted by: nephron---------------------

Sounds like your tuning skills could use a 'polish', Pred.

As you know (I know you're goading), a well-tuned 2 cycle doesn't smoke at all. At least mine don't. 'Course, I don't use oil.

Posted by: nephron---------------------

Oh, and as far as powerbands go, if you rode my 500, you'd never go back to a 500cc 4 stroke again.

This thing digs a trench with about 2mm of throttle pull, the so-called equivalent of (if we call the VE 70% max) of an 800cc four on steroids.

Posted by: loudandproud---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Okiewan

None of it's going to matter when there are no new 2-strokes to be bought....

yah but i have feeling if the fair class act does anything it will boost the sales of two strokes??

Posted by: XRpredator---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by nephron

This thing digs a trench with about 2mm of throttle pull . . .

I dont' dig a trench. I hook up.

Tread Lightly
http://www.redstarnaturalliquidsoaps.co.uk/soap-7.jpg

Posted by: nephron---------------------

Quote:

I dont' dig a trench. I hook up.

You know what they say about weight over the rear tire.

(Man, I hope you know I'm kidding. I'm no weakling, but I'd hate to have your ass all over me.

)

...not stirring. Just having some fun.

Posted by: biglou---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRpredator

I dont' dig a trench.

Straddle trench, maybe.

Posted by: Octane250F---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadgerMan

Which 250 "smoker" are you talking about? Have you ridden an '06 YZ250? You certainly can't be refering to that "smoker". As good as the 250F's are they are no match for a good running "smoker".

Actually, they are more than a match for a good running smoker. 250F riders are turning almost the same laptimes as 450 riders, so at the very least they should be able to keep pace with a 250 smoker.
And by the way, yes I have ridden a YZ 250. Before I bought my 250F I test rode both a YZ 125 and YZ 250. I didnt care for the smoke and "rin-nin-nin-nin" exhaust note of the smoker and loved the power and sound of the thumper.
Whatever floats your boat. To be honest, I think there is enough room in the dirtbiking world for both 2-strokes and 4-strokes.

Posted by: OldTimer---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Octane250F

Why then doesn't the AMA let the 250 2 stroke compete against the 250F pray tell?

I have a guess.

I think EVERYBODY would be happy if they were allowed to compete as such.
Opps... except for the 4 strokers.

Posted by: john stu---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Octane250F

To be honest, I think there is enough room in the dirtbiking world for both 2-strokes and 4-strokes.

thats the smartest thing i have rear so far

Posted by: Josherichy---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Octane250F

What do you mean "when" a 250F has the power and reponse of a 250 smoker? The 250F already does!
I get a kick out of some people who think that a 2-stroke is so much cheaper and more reliable than a 4-stroke. Ive been involved in various forms of motorsport in my life and the common opinion is that 4-strokes are more reliable than 2-strokes. Id love to hear how dirtbikes are an exception to this rule.
2-strokes are for leafblowers.

Posted by: BadgerMan---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Octane250F

Watch what happens to the sales of 250F's should they end up having to compete in the 250cc class.

Posted by: XRpredator---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadgerMan

Watch what happens to the sales of 250F's should they end up having to compete in the 250cc class.

won't be much of a dent, since probably 3/4 of all 250Fs sold never see competition.

Posted by: OldTimer---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRpredator

won't be much of a dent, since probably 3/4 of all 250Fs sold never see competition.

Using those figures, I estimate a 25% decrease in sales.

Posted by: BadgerMan---------------------

Quote:

Using those figures, I estimate a 25% decrease in sales.

Although a 25% drop in sales (I think it may be larger than that) does not sound like much, do you think it will be enough to shift the focus back toward two stroke development and marketing, among the big four?

Personally, I do not think the two stroke’s demise has as much to do with emissions and government restrictions as it does with consumer demand due to the current class rules in MX. The big four (or five) are doing what best suits their profitability. If the rules change followed by the demand, so will their focus.

Fifteen years ago or so, there was a push in the auto industry to “design in content” to improve the OEM’s profitability. That is one reason there was a huge jump in prices to the consumer and that is also why most every car now has standard features (like cruise control, cd players, AC, etc) that were once considered options. Then, fleecing………I mean leasing……..was offered up as a way for consumers to “own” the more expensive vehicles.

Could the focus on four strokes be a way for the big four to “design in content”?

Just a thought……………..

Posted by: SpeedyManiac---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by elliot67

4 strokes are over taking the racing world... 4 strokes are more prone to racing.

Uhhh, crawl out from under your rock. Thumpers dominate motocross, supercross, Baja and dirt track. Two-strokes are still the weapon of choice for enduros, harescrambles, GNCC, trials, etc.

Posted by: trial_07---------------------

Not trials anymore!

Posted by: Josherichy---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by trial_07

Not trials anymore!

2 strokes kill in the trails, If it is a hard trail race most of the 4 strokes get overheated and you can just smell the oil burning from the 4 strokes... some guys just give up becouse it is not worth burning up there motor.

Posted by: RedRacer1137---------------------

Ive always thought it sounded like booming thunder but whatever whats the point here? 4-strokes are taking over and 2-strokes are getting banned, learn to love it. So what you have to do some extra work on a 4-stroke if you are dedicated to the sport and your bike you should not care about $$$$$$ or time working on it.

Posted by: BadgerMan---------------------

Quote:

4-strokes are taking over and 2-strokes are getting banned

Posted by: OldTimer---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedRacer1137

So what you have to do some extra work on a 4-stroke if you are dedicated to the sport and your bike you should not care about $$$$$$ or time working on it.

I take it you don't work for a living.

BTW - I really like the new-age 4 stroke, but 3 out of four of our local hare scrambles this year have been cancelled due to NOISE! These races have been going on for years and since the noisy fours came along it's getting harder and harder to find places to ride. The average joe doesn't care about what kind of emissions you're putting out, but he gets really aggravated about the noise.
The noise level on these bikes should be easy enough to fix, but if it doesn't happen SOON it may be too late!

Posted by: trial_07---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josherichy

I said TRIAL not TRAIL

Posted by: BadgerMan---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by trial_07

I said TRIAL not TRAIL

They "kill" in trials too........

Posted by: trial_07---------------------

I prefer 2-strokes also in both mx and trial (yes TRIAL), but 4-strokes are becoming the weapon of choice in both of these sports. I can understand why 4-strokes are prefered in TRIALS because of their mighty strenght at bottom end and their ''braking by compression''.

Posted by: nephron---------------------

Quote:

Straddle trench, maybe

You mean 'trench crotch'?

Posted by: nephron---------------------

Quote:

Why then doesn't the AMA let the 250 2 stroke compete against the 250F pray tell?

How 'bout we get rid of all the classes. You can ride anything you want. Stock or not. 500AF's vs 80's, if that's what you want to do?

Of course you couldn't do that, because of sales promotion of certain bikes and sponsorship, but imagine Carmichael on an AF at Unadilla. It could be like the old days of Nascar (which was cool stuff)--'run what ya brung'.

Didn't those Superbirds his 200mph around 1970? Just slow enough not to take flight.

edit --people have pointed this out before, but from a company's standpoint, which would make better business sense from an R&D standpoint?: 1) make both a 2 and a 4 for each class, or 2) Make one or the other? Obviously, if they make both, they have to develop, re-engineer, and dump in more production money (2 assembly lines instead of one). All other factors being equal, they'd sell roughly 0-50% less of each one, making it even more inefficient. Screw that. Although it's happening now (eg the YZ250 and 450F), don't you think these companies are licking their chops at the thought of only 1 in each class?

Posted by: motometal---------------------

I think regardless of two stroke or four, what has happened to the classes is wrong. Bikes in the classes, all else being equal, have become way too powerful. It made more sense when the 125 class or "lites" was significantly slower on an average track than the bigger classes. It should be that way, a beginner's class. A beginner's bike does not need 35 hp. Somewhat defeats the purpose of the classes when the "beginner" size bike makes enough power to compete with even a 500 on a tighter mx track. It's at the point now where the limitation is more traction and power delivery related, hence part of the reason the four strokes excell in certain circumstances.

Posted by: uh_oh---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by john stu

I guess we will see now that the ama is letting 250 2t's race with 250f's.
it may be more powerful but the 250f has a broad power curve and more traction than a 2t.
dont get me wrong though, I love both
2 wheels and a motor and we are in business!

Posted by: Brian1c---------------------

2 strokes are the only true dirtbikes

Posted by: truespode---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian1c

2 strokes are the only true dirtbikes

You do know the first dirtbikes were 4-strokes, right?

The same stuff we are arguing about now is what was argued when the 2-strokes came on the scene.

A true dirtbike is the one you ride in the dirt.

Even this one... http://www.vitalmx.com/videos/featu...irt,389/GuyB,64

Ivan

Posted by: BSWIFT---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by truespode

Nice!

Posted by: flyingfuzzball---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by truespode

my friends dad did that with his vintage triumph he restored. he only went in the backyard though. i thought he was nuts. afterwards he did too. he forgot the knobbies.

Posted by: mike109---------------------

2 strokes will be forgotten about within the next 3 yrs
as soon as 4 strokes be come the same price as the 2 strokes (wich they will)
no one will have to worry about is my oil and gas mixed right
or new clutches or SMOKERS and that annoying sound they make
I have no problem with them its just that they are over rated

Posted by: flyingfuzzball---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike109

2 strokes will be forgotten about within the next 3 yrs

i highly doubt that. if people are riding bikes from the 80's and 90's they wont be forgotten. going later in the future is impossible to tell. who knows they could die out. or they could fade back in. remember history repeats itself.

Posted by: TwinSpar---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike109

2 strokes will be forgotten about within the next 3 yrs
as soon as 4 strokes be come the same price as the 2 strokes (wich they will)

You are correct.... they will take a technology that is less expensive to produce (the 2 stroke) and drive it's price up to match the price of a 4 stroke cause they can and so few will be producing them. I dunno.... the logic doesn't work for me. Course I'm struggling to get an AF so I can go back to a bike I can work on myself with limited garage space and trust to be around alot longer than my 450F or 250F. My past two ride after unloading the 450 and dropping down to my son's 250F have me cringing every time I over rev it....

Posted by: friar tuck---------------------

Two strokes will be forgettin in 3 years? I hear more and more people going BACK to 2 strokes, for one reason or another (or several

). Even if all the jap bikes quit being made, KTM isn't showing any signs of slowing down production of their 2s. They'll never be forgotten...there will always be old farts like me (40) who will ride them. I can see the day, when I'm REALLY old, that I might actually consider buying a 4 stroke.

Posted by: ropethebike---------------------

I ride 2 strokes, I have nothing against 4 strokes EXCEPT one thing....there too damn LOUD!

I mean wherever your riding some jackass on a 4t nails it and you think a pulling truck or something with 300 hp just jumped on the track...............its really just annoying as hell

I go to ride to relax a little and relieve some stress, yeah I'm old, but everytime I take my helmet off some 4t rider has me throwing a kink in my neck to see whats making that horrible noise and is it going to run over me..............thats why the 4t suck..............in my opinion they just ruin a nice day of riding because they are so loud

thats my thoughts........

Posted by: rostifer---------------------

I think that the unpopular state of the 2stroke is normal. Bikes are kinda like the economy it rises and falls. Popularity of bikes rise and fall. I remember reading a Dirt Bike magazine and it had an article about this old guys bike that he restored and there only a few made but the point is during that time, fourstrokes were on top in the motocross game. In the 1950's I think. It's kinda sad that the 2s is losing popularity because thats just another thing lost to our sport. Just my 2 cents

Posted by: P0PWAR---------------------

4 strokes, heavier, less power(unless you buy a cr43598473255x, compared to a cr250. Theirfore making it heavier.) Harder to work on, and they cost more money for parts and such. 2 strokes are the way to go.

Posted by: uh_oh---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by P0PWAR

4 strokes, heavier, less power(unless you buy a cr43598473255x, compared to a cr250. Theirfore making it heavier.) Harder to work on, and they cost more money for parts and such. 2 strokes are the way to go.

yeah. if your talking per cc the 250f's are now less than a 250 2t and a 450 is only 7 pounds heavier.
08 YZ250F: 204 lb
08 YZ250: 212 lb
08 YZ450F: 219 lb

Posted by: ignition retard---------------------

How much does it cost to keep the engine up to spec in one year on a 250f, including clutch,and bottom end? My yz125 costs about $400 this year. Thats 2 piston kits + 1 cylinder re plate, 0 clutches, and 0 bottom ends. I rode twice a week, but took 5 weeks off, mostly track riding. Still using original clutch and crank.

Posted by: xkevenx---------------------

i give him credit... i rode a four stroke 450 and it broke down i had to sell it couse it was to fregin expensive! it was about 1500 euro's thats a 1700$ or so, i stick with two stroke why?

two stroke----> less moving parts and more power = cheap and good
four stroke----> more moving parts less power but more low end = expensive and less good( its stil good but why pay more to have less?)

Posted by: Ol'89r---------------------

Waaaaaa, waaaaaaa, waaaaaa!

Jeeze, what a bunch of crybabies.

The fact of the matter is, we have more choices today than we have ever had. And everyone is still crying.

You can walk into your local dealer and buy a state-of-the-art racing machine. Two or four stroke. Manufactured with aluminum, magnesium, titanium and all the latest trick coatings and technology. Bikes that most people can't even ride to their full potential.

Honda is the only one that has stopped making two strokes, all the rest still make them and KTM is dedicated to continue making two strokes for many years to come.

The class structure is equal now, in fact, if anything it is in favor of the two stroke.

Used two strokes only a couple of years old are very inexpensive to buy and still have all the modern technology of a brand new one. And there are tons of them available.

Aftermarket manufactures will continue to make parts for the two strokes. Even if the OEM's quit making them, parts will be available for your two stroke.

Both two stroke and four strokes have their place in racing. Some work better in certain conditions than the others and visa versa. Pick the one that works best for you.

No one is forcing anyone to ride a four stroke or a two stroke. Granted, under certain racing conditions a four stroke may work better and if you want to be competitive, that's what you will have to ride. Same goes with a two stroke in other disciplines.

It is up to you to determine which is the best weapon for you and the type of riding you do. If you are overwhelmed by the complexity of the four stroke engines then, buy a two stroke. The choices are many, no reason to cry about it.

Posted by: stumanarama---------------------

actually, after 08 the only ones still making the 250s are yamaha and ktm, suzuki said 08 is their last year and honda and kawi already stopped, it made me sad to pick up the latest 250 shootout magazine article to see only three entries, of which only one was significantly changed from the year before, the ktm i believe. oh well, everyone should be able to ride what they want(although those fours are awful loud) but it sucks to see the two strokes fading out

Posted by: derek the 2 stroke---------------------

Im seeing alotta stuff about even classes.Is that true?

Posted by: XRpredator---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by derek the 2 stroke

Im seeing alotta stuff about even classes.Is that true?

only in amateur

Posted by: OldTimer---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by friar tuck

...I hear more and more people going BACK to 2 strokes, for one reason or another (or several

)....

I finally broke down and bought a 250X a couple of months ago and I just love the power delivery, suspension, and feel, buuuut....
I'm almost afraid to ride it because of all the terrible things I'm hearing about maintenance costs. Unlike a lot of the posters here, I'm not thrilled about wrenching on my bike. I kinda figured that I was getting a happy medium between an "R" and an "XR", but I hear now that my engine is going to explode within a few hours no matter how I ride or maintain my bike. I wish now that I'd bought KTM 2T if for no other reason than that after 2 years of use, no wants to touch a 4T and I'll never get the resale value that I could get from a 2T. When I do get my next bike, it'll be a 2T for sure!(if anyone still makes them). I'll bet KTM corners the market, trailwise, if they keep up developement on their 2T's.

Come to think of it... they already have, haven't they?

Posted by: Rich Rohrich---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldTimer

I kinda figured that I was getting a happy medium between an "R" and an "XR"

You did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldTimer

but I hear now that my engine is going to explode within a few hours no matter how I ride or maintain my bike.

It won't.

Posted by: truespode---------------------

I have had a 2001 YZ250F that everyone said the crank was going to explode. I had a 2003 CRF450 that everyone said the valves were going to go bad with. I had a 2003 YZ250F that I bought used and it did lock up but had the engine completely rebuilt by Rich. Now I have a 2005 YZ250F.

I have not had to put a lot of money into any bike except the 2003 YZ250F but after Rich put it back together it was perfect.

Both my 2001 YZ250F, 2003 CRF450 and 2003 YZ250F are still running strong (from the last time I talked to each of the owners).

If you maintain them properly they will last a long time and be great machines.

The cost of ownership versus a 250 2-smoke is a bit higher due to the parts being higher but then again it costs less to maintain my 1977 DT100 than any other bike I have owned but which bike do you think I'd rather ride?

The cost of ownership on my 4-strokes have not been unreal and with the exception of my last two bikes I did not do the wrenching on my 4-strokes, I paid someone else to do it. Now that I do it myself it is not that bad for a top end cost wise.

I might go back to a 2-stroke one day b/c I like the way they handle in the woods but I am so comfortable on a 4-stroke that I am not sure I can ride a 2-stroke as well anymore.

Ivan

Posted by: Rice#67---------------------

I was a service writer at a motorcycle shop for a little while and let me give you my view on things... If you want a good race bike, buy a CRF, YZF etc. Smooth power, good traction=fast lap times. Sure... But remember to check those valves, they recommend every 20 hours of hard riding. I have seen them go longer but then again I've seen $1500 topend rebuilds too. Adjusting the valves is about 1.5 hours labor. So your looking at $130 every 20 hours of racing. Unless you learn to do it yourself. I agree if your into racing buy one. But if your trail riding for fun and that's it, buy an XR. These new 4 strokes are not like the old ones. Or if your smart, you'll buy a 2-stroke.

I am a diehard two-stroke rider, and I love how cheap they are and all that... And I also believe that 2-strokes excel in certain areas. But... when a sport is getting as big as this one, the companies are going to throw more money at it. Suzuki is coming out with a fuel injected 450, and I'm sure the rest are to follow. 4-strokes is the introduction of the sport progressing, therefore turning into a richman's hobby. If you look at the superbike world, the bikes have already went to 4-strokes, but that's mostly due to smog regulations. But how many can afford to race streetbikes all the time?

Anyways, what I am basically saying is that the racing sport is progressing, in order for riders to go faster on bikes they up the engine size. In order to do that in motocross and such, the larger displacement must have smooth power. This is why they are using the 4-stroke. The sport is only getting bigger.

I think they should make classes of 2-strokes vs. 2-strokes and 4-strokes vs. 4-strokes. That way we end the discussion of which one is faster and then rider comes into play again.

Posted by: PlowboysGhost---------------------

Rice#67,

I know where you're coming from when you mention the more tractable power delivery of a four stroke helping lap times, but I submit that a properly built/setup 2-stroke is not really at a disadvantage in that respect when ridden by a great rider. The difference in that circumstance is in the differing ways that the two types of bikes must be ridden. I do feel that 4-strokes are indeed easier to ride, but I don't agree that this 4-stroke trend is one of "progression".

I do personaly know a couple of Pros that have made the switch to thumpers, and to be quite honest, they are finacialy able(through one way or another)to afford the bills often associated with running the new high compression/titanium this and that 4-strokes at it's peak when I and the average Joe cannot.

I don't want to see MX, etc....become a rich man's sport anymore than I want to have to quit deer hunting because all previously open land has been shut down by hunting clubs with a handful of members who feel that I should be willing and/or able to pay $1000+ a year to hunt....but both seem to be happening.

Again, I look at this "debate" in terms of how it affects me personally. I can't afford, and I wouldn't be willing to if I could, spend the money for a new(er) bike that's going to require expensive (to me)regular maintanance and cost more to rebuild when something goes wrong(and on these high strung machines something WILL) than I could afford without having to put my house up as collateral.

Who in the world thinks that an exhaust system is worth $600+ anyway?

-Guess I'm just a dinosaur

Posted by: Moparman1539---------------------

Everyone has there own opinions. And your not going to change them.

I like my 2-stroke, I have nothing against a 4-stroke but i cant afford a newer bike rite now. I also do like how easy it is to fix. And it saves me time. But i have tore apart a 4-stroke go-cart motor (150cc) and to tell you the truth.. it wasn't that hard.

Posted by: funfactor1---------------------

It is not that it is hard to repair a 4-stroke it is the expense.

Posted by: DieselTech---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlowboysGhost

Rice#67,

Who in the world thinks that an exhaust system is worth $600+ anyway?

I don't. However, if it is a Titanium system, the cost may be justifiable based on the cost of Titanium (raw materials). Actually, I'd say it's worth it if it can keep the 4-stroke noise levels at or below what a 2-stroke (like my 93dB '04 CR250R) is.

What I find funny is the money people spend on aftermarket engine performance parts for their machines to "soup them up" (when they aren't even pushing the limits of the bike as it sits stock) - instead of spending the money on what it REALLY takes to make your bike faster - RIDING SKILL - i.e., ride time.

Posted by: Moparman1539---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselTech

What I find funny is the money people spend on aftermarket engine performance parts for their machines to "soup them up" (when they aren't even pushing the limits of the bike as it sits stock) - instead of spending the money on what it REALLY takes to make your bike faster - RIDING SKILL - i.e., ride time.

Its because everyone wants to twist the throttle and then take off like a rocket.it makes them think they are faster. I love to ride my Kx250.. but in reality, i can pull faster lap times (in my yard of course..) on the ke100 than the 250.. But on the 100 i rode it every day for 2 years. I have exceeded the limits of the bike.. throttle is pinned the whole time. But for some reason i FEEL faster on the 250.

Posted by: stumanarama---------------------

moparman, its simple really, just a perfect example of the rice rocket syndrome. the louder the vehicle is, clearly the faster it is. just look at this theory here
louder=faster, or the advanced formula: badass=fast. x(badass)=x(fast)=sq.rt.(loud)*ignorance level, therefore the level of ignorance times the sqare root of the decibel level=how badass the vehicle operator equates to (in his own mind needless to say). simple algebra

Posted by: mike109---------------------

[QUOTE=stumanarama the louder the vehicle is, clearly the faster it is.
not ture
if your old smoker has a bad pipe or no packing then it wont be faster it would be slower

Posted by: XRpredator---------------------

some people just don't get humor

Posted by: johnnycrash---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by stumanarama

moparman, its simple really, just a perfect example of the rice rocket syndrome. the louder the vehicle is, clearly the faster it is. just look at this theory here
louder=faster, or the advanced formula: badass=fast. x(badass)=x(fast)=sq.rt.(loud)*ignorance level, therefore the level of ignorance times the sqare root of the decibel level=how badass the vehicle operator equates to (in his own mind needless to say). simple algebra

x10. BUT ... that's not the rice-rocket syndrome, that's the Hardley-Ableson syndrome (obnoxiously loud yet pathetically slow)

Posted by: jcarautos1---------------------

Than why do the 4 strokes have so many problems if you staul them out. You gotta kick them till your leg falls off or you replace the plug?

Posted by: XRpredator---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcarautos1

Than why do the 4 strokes have so many problems if you staul them out. You gotta kick them till your leg falls off or you replace the plug?

you only have to kick them over once unless you are a doofus

Posted by: stumanarama---------------------

well johnny, this advance theory is more an umbrella term and has many applications(haha i do like the hardley ableson thing), and mike, thank you for that affirmation

Posted by: funfactor1---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRpredator

you only have to kick them over once unless you are a doofus

If you think a hot 4-stroke will start in 1 kick after you stall it than you are the doofus

Posted by: Mully---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by funfactor1

If you think a hot 4-stroke will start in 1 kick after you stall it than you are the doofus

Sure it will, with one push of the button.........

Posted by: XRpredator---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by funfactor1

If you think a hot 4-stroke will start in 1 kick after you stall it than you are the doofus

of course it will start with one kick.

If you know what you are doing. Like me.

Posted by: _JOE_---------------------

A Doofus Is The Person Who Doesn't Jet Thier Bike And Then Complains Because It's Hard To Start, And The People Who Don't Have Experience With The New 4t's And Sit And Bash Them. Doofuses!

Posted by: Ol'89r---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by funfactor1

If you think a hot 4-stroke will start in 1 kick after you stall it than you are the doofus

Spoken like someone that has never actually ridden one.

Where are all of these doofuses coming from???

Posted by: sixds---------------------

Quote:

A Doofus Is The Person Who Doesn't Jet Thier Bike And Then Complains Because It's Hard To Start, And The People Who Don't Have Experience With The New 4t's And Sit And Bash Them. Doofuses!

what about the factory riders in races that stall their bikes and cant get them going again? im pretty sure their mechanics jet the bikes...

Posted by: truespode---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixds

what about the factory riders in races that stall their bikes and cant get them going again? im pretty sure their mechanics jet the bikes...

Or they are trying to start the bike like a 2-stroke like JLaw did.

I have no problem re-starting after a stall in a HS unless I am trying to start on a hill facing up and I can't start a 2-stroke under those circumstances.

Ivan

Posted by: funfactor1---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ol'89r

Spoken like someone that has never actually ridden one.

Where are all of these doofuses coming from???

Actually I have owned many and I still say most if not all 4-strokes are hard to start after a hot stall jetted proper or not.

Posted by: Rich Rohrich---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by funfactor1

Actually I have owned many and I still say most if not all 4-strokes are hard to start after a hot stall jetted proper or not.

Well it looks like he told you guys.

Posted by: truespode---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by funfactor1

Actually I have owned many and I still say most if not all 4-strokes are hard to start after a hot stall jetted proper or not.

I got a problem going on at work where one application is not working for a particular device but all similar devices are working with it.

Is it the application, the other devices or the one particular device with the problem?

Ivan

Posted by: Mully---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by truespode

Come on Ivan...... everyone knows it is always the network.

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when a 250cc four stroke has the power and responce of a 250cc 2 stroke

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