DirtRider . Net MX, SX, Arena Cross, Off-Road Community

This is the text version of DirtRider.Net
Click Here for the Full Version

Pages: 1

"SOLD OUT of 250 2-strokes"
(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Posted by: 2-Strokes 4-ever---------------------

After hearing the MX AMA amateur class changes (250cc 2 & 4 stroke), I was thinking....... 250f riders will mainly be up-and-comers (stepping up from 80's) but tons of riders are going to run out and buy a 2-stroke to bring home the cash and trophys.
Called my dealer to order some parts yesterday and was chatting with the parts manager about just this subject. He said "yea, we've sold a boat load of 250 2-strokes lately, and can't hardly find any now."
Boy, I'm looking forward to a return of 2-stroke R&D!

Posted by: IndyMX---------------------

Unless they run them in the pro ranks, don't count on much R&D.

Posted by: SpeedyManiac---------------------

It depends how sales do. No motorcycle company has been successful by only catering to the pro ranks (what do most pros think of stock bikes? power is too tame and suspension is too soft for them, but perfect for most average riders). It would be great if the two-strokes got some more R&D, but I won't hold my breath for any of the japs to upgrade their bikes. They're too focused on making millions on thumper parts.

Posted by: 2-Strokes 4-ever---------------------

"Too focused on making thumper parts."
Agreed......BUT, as far as 250f's, will there be a huge decline in sales? They're good bikes for off-road....... perhaps the WR's, and X's will now be the main 250f sales. They aren't run so hard and require less maintainance and dollars than a high rpm MXer.

Posted by: atkkid250---------------------

i am still thinking that the 250 pingers are still the best bikes. but i am biased so what do i know. i myself am noticing more and mroe 250's being sold as well. did they stop making them? i thought they did this year but never got it confirmed. bummer if they did. atk still makes 2 strokes though, just came out awhile ago with their 700 and 620 and their feared 50 2 strokes haha

Posted by: SpeedyManiac---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2-Strokes 4-ever

"Too focused on making thumper parts."
Agreed......BUT, as far as 250f's, will there be a huge decline in sales? They're good bikes for off-road....... perhaps the WR's, and X's will now be the main 250f sales. They aren't run so hard and require less maintainance and dollars than a high rpm MXer.

I disagree with the point on they're good offroad bikes. I took a ride on a CRF450X and wasn't impressed. Heavier and less power (including bottom end) than my Gasser 250 two-stroke. That said, for cruising around on back roads I wouldn't mind a 450 thumper since the lubrication is not linked to throttle opening.

Posted by: 2-Strokes 4-ever---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2-Strokes 4-ever

250f's

Posted by: Rich Rohrich---------------------

Only a tiny percentage of the MX bikes sold are ever raced. I wouldn't hold my breath expecting major changes just because some local guys decide to race two-strokes.

Posted by: IndyMX---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Rohrich

Only a tiny percentage of the MX bikes sold are ever raced. I wouldn't hold my breath expecting major changes just because some local guys decide to race two-strokes.

Pretty much my thinking. No real ROI for them that way..

Posted by: 2-Strokes 4-ever---------------------

I don't get it. Wouldn't "some local guys" throughout 50 states add up to quite a few? Don't you suppose the slower-motored 250f riders would get tired of the disadvantage and buy one too? Come on........ there's a lot of MX 250f owners getting tired of the big bucks involved in racing one. It's going on around here. People are going to be looking for ways to actually be able to afford to race/ride. Costs me $160 to fill my truck up.......gotta make up for it somewhere.

Posted by: YamaB---------------------

I ride orange, so I'm used to the latest in 2-stroke technology since they are the only ones still actively persuing 2-stroke performance. If you look at the grid in any of our local offroad races, nearly 50% of the bikes are 2-strokes (mostly orange, but also a fair share of blue and some green/red/yellow). Hell, there is a waiting list if you want to by a new ktm 300 or 250 xc/xcw smoker locally...

I still prefer a big 4t for mx, but nothing beats a smoker in the woods. Since I ride/race 90% woods, my 300 smoker is like a dream come true (also have a 4t sx in the garage, but LOVE the 300)...

Posted by: Rich Rohrich---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2-Strokes 4-ever

Come on........ there's a lot of MX 250f owners getting tired of the big bucks involved in racing one. It's going on around here.

You seem to be missing the point. Racers are a very small part of the sales picture. The majority of these bikes NEVER see a race, so things like the relative cost to race one versus another, tends to be irrelevant in terms of sales impact.

Non racers, and the guys who just race one in a while will buy the bike that they have the most fun riding, and they are the bulk of the buyers.

Posted by: 2-Strokes 4-ever---------------------

I see your point, and I guess I don't look outside the box I'm in. You are in a motorcycle related repair/research business correct? Do you see the non-racer having the valvetrain maintainance and repair issues that a racer does?

Posted by: wake_rider---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by YamaB

I ride orange, so I'm used to the latest in 2-stroke technology since they are the only ones still actively persuing 2-stroke performance. If you look at the grid in any of our local offroad races, nearly 50% of the bikes are 2-strokes (mostly orange, but also a fair share of blue and some green/red/yellow). Hell, there is a waiting list if you want to by a new ktm 300 or 250 xc/xcw smoker locally...

I still prefer a big 4t for mx, but nothing beats a smoker in the woods. Since I ride/race 90% woods, my 300 smoker is like a dream come true (also have a 4t sx in the garage, but LOVE the 300)...

What about Gasgas, and Yamaha? Both are still pursuing r&d in their 2 stroke programs as well. You sound like another KTM snob that has more pocketbook than ability or skill! (btw, I'm just messing with you. Just because most other KTM riders have no skill doesn't mean you fall in the same category!!)

I ride with a few people on 300 exc's and I really am not at all a fan of them. They don't have near the 'hit' of a 250 smoker, but they do have a good amount more of torque. Myself and a buddy on a kx250 spank them all pretty bad, but they definitely are faster than they used to be since they bought the 300's.

Now, I would be interested in the gasgas ec300. I've done some reading on them and everyone that compared them to the 300 exc's said they had all the torque of the exc, but with the hit of a 250 smoker mx'r. If we had a gas gas dealer nearby, I'd like to take one for a spin...

Posted by: 2-Strokes 4-ever---------------------

I think it all depends on the terrain you ride in. "Hit" is NOT a good thing when it's tight and slippery. In those conditions a friendly delivery will get you to the end of the trail quicker. Torque let's you ride a gear high through the truly tough stuff. A Gas Gas is the perfect weapon for these conditions. If you want "hit" you won't like the Gasser.

Posted by: theKDX200rider---------------------

Anyone hear of Yamaha's new "secret motor", just a normal two stroke, that they are going to put in their race bikes to race against to four-strokes.

Posted by: XRpredator---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by theKDX200rider

Anyone hear of Yamaha's new "secret motor", just a normal two stroke, that they are going to put in their race bikes to race against to four-strokes.

it's electric

Posted by: MOTO ON RM250---------------------

electric? im interested tell me more about this so called "secret motor"

Posted by: XRpredator---------------------

it's electrical

Posted by: Rich Rohrich---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRpredator

it's electrical

... but is electricity involved?

Posted by: XRpredator---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Rohrich

... but is electricity involved?

it's a secret, that's why they call it a secret motor

Posted by: Rich Rohrich---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRpredator

it's a secret, that's why they call it a secret motor

Double secret probation style, gotcha.

Posted by: CJG---------------------

My boss is looking for a 250 for his son because he says racing the four strokes is getting too expensive(he just spent $1,500 getting his sons 150F motor fixed). He says he hasn't been able to find a 250 two stroke sitting on a dealership floor anywhere. 250F's, however, are really easy to find. Maybe it's because dealers ordered a lot more 250F's, I don't know. I suspect the 250F may be on the way out thanks to the new AMA rules and the high maintenance costs of the little F's. What may save the250F, aside from what Rich is talking about re: non-racers buying most of the bikes sold and typically only buying what they see the pros riding(I think this is what you're talking about, right Rich, please correct me if I'm being presumptuous), is the fact that they're easier for beginners and novices to ride than the much more powerful and demanding 250 two-strokes. Especially for the younger riders who have never been on a two-stroke bigger than an 85.

Of course folks should take my opinions with a grain of salt, since I'm a crotchety old fart who's been riding in the dirt for 31 years and has only personally owned one four stroke(which I absolutely despised). By the way, I think there is something wrong with my RM250. Sometimes when it's hot and I shut the bike off, or stall it on the trail, it takes two kicks(instead of the usual one) to get it to start. What's wrong with it? Just kidding, poking a little fun at the four strokers out there.

Please don't kick my butt with your freakishly muscular right legs.

Posted by: 2-Strokes 4-ever---------------------

^

^
Boy do I feel stupid. My dad always use to tell me........"Engage brain before puting mouth in gear." To think I asked Rich basically: "confirm to me all the problems with the 250fs." (in a previous unanswered question in this thread) Why would that ever happen when you make money working on them. duh.

Posted by: Rich Rohrich---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2-Strokes 4-ever

While he was at it your Dad should have told you what mine told me, "check your facts ".

I don't make my living or generate any income working on 250Fs or any other motorcycle engines so I could care less what people buy. Whether they break or live forever my interest is still the same, basic research doing failure analysis with my buddy Eric Gorr and trying to come up with better ways to build reliable affordable horsepower. I will admit it's always my hope that what I learn can benefit Eric's business in some way, but other than that, there isn't a mercenary component to what I post. Your question didn't get answered directly because I wasn't following this thread that closely, and honestly I've answered the question time and again. I guess the SEARCH function must be disabled.

Sorry to ruin your conspiracy theory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJG

aside from what Rich is talking about re: non-racers buying most of the bikes sold and typically only buying what they see the pros riding(I think this is what you're talking about, right Rich, please correct me if I'm being presumptuous)

The reason I think most people who don't care about AMA racing will choose a 250F or a 450F has to do with them being for most people, easier to ride. I think that holds true for a large segment of riders, not just novices. For me and for a lot of people they are just more fun to ride.

I don't think the bike ridden by some guy in an SX race has much if any impact on real world sales. If it did, CRF250s & 450s would not be the perennial best sellers. Frankly, I'm surprised the OEMs put so much money in SX & MX racing. Suzuki spent a fortune and Ricky won a lot of races on an RMZ450, but people still ran to their Honda dealer and bought CRF450s in droves.

No question someone who seriously races a 250F or 450F will spend more than they would on a comparable two-stroke. Only a dunce would try and argue that point, but the misinformation and BS routinely shoveled by Luddites and ill-informed two-strokes zealots is laughable. I've done enough work with both two-strokes and four to be able to separate the truth from the moronic BS, and the BS is rampant. Everything from they blow up every race, to you never have to do anything but change the oil. Never underestimate the willingness of people to be lead down the wrong path.

For the average rider, the cost difference between a two-stroke and a good Japanese four-stroke (CRF, YZF) will be negligible over the life of the bike IF AND ONLY IF , proper routine maintenance is performed.

I rode my 2002 CRF450 twice (sometimes 3 times) a week on an SX track for two years, and then rode it playing supermoto in the local industrial park a couple of times a month for another year. I checked the valves regularly, but it took nearly 3 full seasons time before I had enough valve movement to matter. I rebuilt the cylinder head with stainless steel Kibblewhite parts and don't expect to have to do the valves again for 300 hours or so. The crank was still in excellent shape, so it will stay in there for another season.

In that time I should have put a couple of sets of rings in, and a piston to maintain full power, but the thing makes enough power stock that even with tired rings it's plenty powerful for me on a hardpacked track like I was riding. That and I wanted to see what the parts would look like knowing the maintenance and rpm levels the engine was regularly subjected to.

For reference, here's a 9 minute slice of typical laps and rpm ranges that the bike spent the bulk of it's life in.

http://www.chicagostories.net/image..._time_1_CRF.jpg

So to hopefully answer your question, the RMZ/KXF 250s are unreliable junk, but all the CRFs and YZFs have proven to be very reliable and mostly trouble-free for the average rider.

Regular valve checks, maybe a top end once a year and a few model specific high wear items are all most people (non-racers) will need for the first couple of years. Some will require valve replacement after two seasons, but upgrading to high quality springs and stainless steel valves like the Kibblewhite parts makes that a non-issue going forward.

Fast guys who are practicing a couple days a week and racing on the weekend, just need to up the intervals. Regular top ends, and valve springs once a year to be safe. That's nothing new, it was pretty much the same way with two-strokes (500s aside). Riders in those days just didn't get smacked as hard for being morons and ignoring maintenance.

They can be more expensive to own, but I think it routinely gets blown out of proportion. If people would quit treating them like XRs and do some scheduled maintenance they would be far better off.

Dave Hollub (oldguy) has had his very fast son Eric racing on four-strokes (250 & 450) for long enough to prove the validity of this approach. Eric Gorr and I have dealt with lots of other guys who approached it the way Dave has and they have had similar good results. The big honking blow-ups are more fun to talk about and make for some really compelling macro photos but the reality is they are usually the result of poor maintenance practices or just general ignorance about what wears out and when on a 13,500 rpm race motor.

Wear is directly proportional to time spent at rpm. Increase the time or the rpm and things wear out faster.
As a result fast guys usually wear stuff out sooner than slow guys, and four-strokes break harder if you taunt the maintenance gods. No mystery there.

Posted by: CJG---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Rohrich

Agreed Rich. I think the four strokes are probably easier to ride for most people, personally I find them very boring. I much prefer the thrill of riding two strokes. Different strokes(literally) for different folks I guess. Of course, as I said before, I'm a dyed in the wool two stroke guy from way back. I was talking more from a racing standpoint. What I really meant was that I don't see the 250F as being at a real disadvantage for beginners and novices, since the ease of riding equals out the lack of performance. But I believe more experienced riders should certainly do better with a 250 two stroke, it's hard to argue with an extra 10-15 HP if the rider is capable of using it. Beginners and novices probably can't take advantage of the extra performance, but better riders should be able to control and make good use of that extra power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Rohrich

I don't think the bike ridden by some guy in an SX race has much if any impact on real world sales. If it did, CRF250s & 450s would not be the perennial best sellers. Frankly, I'm surprised the OEMs put so much money in SX & MX racing. Suzuki spent a fortune and Ricky won a lot of races on an RMZ450, but people still ran to their Honda dealer and bought CRF450s in droves.

I stand corrected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Rohrich

...the misinformation and BS routinely shoveled by Luddites and ill-informed two-strokes zealots is laughable. I've done enough work with both two-strokes and four to be able to separate the truth from the moronic BS, and the BS is rampant.

Dang, and here I thought I was finally going to be able to use my B.S. in BS. Guess I wasted all that money on college.j/k

P.S.- Rich, do you think the new AMA rules could be a boon to Service Honda? It seems to me that a really good open class rider on a CR or KX500AF should be able to mop the floor with an equal rider on a 450F. In the '04 TWMX review of the Service Honda CR500AF SE, the test riders were 1 to 3 seconds a lap faster on the 500AF than they were on a "modded CRF450". If I had eleven grand to spend I'd order a KX500AF tomorrow.

Posted by: Rich Rohrich---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJG

But I believe more experienced riders should certainly do better with a 250 two stroke, it's hard to argue with an extra 10-15 HP if the rider is capable of using it. Beginners and novices probably can't take advantage of the extra performance, but better riders should be able to control and make good use of that extra power.

I think it depends on the track to a large extent. Watching Doug Henry on his YZM400 beat the best two-stroke riders in the world on the rock hard Vegas SX track in '97 proved to me (once again) that having the right type of power is usually more important than having the most power.

Supermoto riders abandoned the more powerful CR500s and KX500s in favor of the more usable power of the 450s.

There is no denying the rush of a 250 two-stroke is fun, but the lap times I've seen from various expert level riders make me think that extra power doesn't always translate into forward progress.

Hopefully the OEMs will sell enough bikes to make continuing development on two-strokes a viable option.

Posted by: CJG---------------------

Rich, I see you replied while I was editing my previous post. You pretty much answered my PS before I even asked it. Have you been struck by lightning recently and developed the power of precognition?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Rohrich

Hopefully the OEMs will sell enough bikes to make continuing development on two-strokes a viable option.

I hope so too. Thanks for your time.

Posted by: Rich Rohrich---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJG

In the '04 TWMX review of the Service Honda CR500AF SE, the test riders were 1 to 3 seconds a lap faster on the 500AF than they were on a "modded CRF450". If I had eleven grand to spend I'd order a KX500AF tomorrow.

AJ has done some really great work with their new digital ignition to make the 500AF have a more ridable spread of power. No question they'll sell a bunch of them.

Posted by: 2-Strokes 4-ever---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJG

Thanks for your time.

Ditto. Thanks for the time put into informing us.

Posted by: YamaB---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by wake_rider

What about Gasgas, and Yamaha? Both are still pursuing r&d in their 2 stroke programs as well... blah.. blah... blah...

It is my impression that the yz250 basically gets cosmetic changes and minor tweaks each year, while ktm basically re-designed the whole bike for '08. You also have to consider that the ktm's come ready to race in the woods, while the yz250 is a hard core mx'er which needs quite a bit of work to get it ready for serious offroad racing. I don't know much about GasGas, so I can't comment on them. I do know that you see VERY few of them around for whatever reason.

This is my 4th season of competitive racing and I would consider myself a fairly skilled rider. I'm probably faster than most, albeit the AA guys still make me look stupid.

As for power, I prefer a smoother power curve w/ loads of torque over a motor w/ a lot of HIT. I've owned a yz250 and kx250 which both had a very big HIT. Lots of fun on the mx track but a handful in the tight woods that I usually race in. Not that my 300 lacks straight line power. My 300 definitely doesn't FEEL that fast due to the smooth power delivery, but I don't have any trouble keeping up with 450 4t's on long straights.

I've owned Yamahas, Hondas, Kawasakis, and Ktms. I don't have any particular brand loyalty, albeit I used to be a die hard Yamaha guy (see my screen name). So far the orange bikes have been the most reliable and over-all my favorites.

Posted by: wake_rider---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by YamaB

Yeah. Really the yz's just get work on gearing, cosmetic, frame rake and suspension. It can give the bike a completely different feel though. The current yz engine has been the same since 1999, but ride my bike (a 99) and ride an '03 and they feel really different. The bottom end is a lot different, and the suspension is not at all the same.

Gas Gas hasn't really made it's appearance known in the States yet but from what I can tell, it will. It seems they are building too good of bikes to not get more notice in the future.

I ride some pretty tight woods, and I'm very comfortable on my yz. I don't use anything but clutch and throttle control to tame my bike in the woods, and honestly with the aftermarket exhaust and reeds I'm running my bike hits harder than it did when I bought it. I love that hit even in the tight stuff, but it does take some time to get comfortable with it. Now if I get on a tamed down version I have a hard time riding it. I'm so used to that sudden burst I can get by opening the throttle that I have a hard time keeping the front wheel out of the nasty business when I'm riding someone else's bike.

Posted by: friar tuck---------------------

I see some Gas Gas on the trails around here occiasionally...also see some Husqvarna's from time to time. What's everyone opinion on the Husky's? A dealership just opened up a few blocks from my house...they LOOK like nice bikes. I haven't had a Husky since my '79 250 CR.

Posted by: jsned---------------------

I rode a Kawasaki 250F for the first time this weekend back to back with my 2004 YZ250. Not a bad bike but definitely down on power for the lazy man. I mean it will haul but you have to really hammer it. It seemed real close in the weight though.

I would like to try one of the woods version.

Text Version Home

This is the text version of DirtRider.Net Click Here for the Full Version

"SOLD OUT of 250 2-strokes"

This is the text version of DirtRider.Net
Click Here for the Full Version