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Definition of "a race"
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Posted by: rmc_olderthandirt---------------------

Okay, a discussion in a recent thread got me thinking. Since the other thread was heading into a flame war I thought I would start a new one. I kept it here just in case this one turns into a flame war too, although that it not my intention.

Several people have stated that they change their oil after every race. My knee jerk reaction was "wow, that's a lot of oil changes". But then it occured to me that I may not be considering it correctly.

I ride enduros, so for me, a "race" would happen once a month. The actual enduro would last several hours. I would play ride several hours the day before and usually have another weekend of play riding in between the enduro weekends. So, I could change my oil after every race and that would equate to something around 10 hours of riding.

Just recently I have started hitting the local MX track. The track is open three days a week for practice and then races once a week. I haven't been there on race day yet but I picture all the regulars hitting practice twice a week and then riding a couple of heats on race day. The actual "race" would be measured in minutes and would be dwarfed by the hours of practice. So, changing the oil after every race could mean after a few hours of operation.

So, my question to you guys is how many hours of engine operation does your oil change happen at?

Rod

Posted by: 2-Strokes 4-ever---------------------

You're on a 2-stroke? Clutch wear (and it's contamination) is the issue. Heavy clutch user= every ride. Don't use clutch much= every two. I am hard on clutches and change every 4-5 hrs... and it IS dirty. I just use cheapo "Coastal ATF type F" from Auto Zone... $2 per qt?

Posted by: _JOE_---------------------

3-6 hours.

Posted by: whenfoxforks-ruled---------------------

It all depends on the engine and the operator. Clutch abuse and certain models need more attention. How much insurance do you like? And as always, an mx bike is designed to complete 1 race. I wish I could afford that! But that equates to about an 1 1/2 to 2 hours. Lugging the motor can be worse than ripping it. That is what it was designed for. Using it for something else? You are the judge on that one.

Posted by: Cabot---------------------

Something that has always bugged me, in both the Clymer Shop Manual and the owners manual for my 05 CRF250R, it says oil change every 5 races or 15 hours, and replace piston and wrings every 5 races of 15 hours. So I'm supposed to be changing my piston and wrings when I change my oil. Not happening for me.

(4 stroke)
I change my oil every 1-2-3 rides depending on how much I ride. If the track is crappy, i might only ride 20 minutes. Sometimes I'll put close to two tanks through.. Tranny oil every other oil change, It still comes out bright red.

Posted by: whenfoxforks-ruled---------------------

There is no way, even on a Honda, that I would wait that long for an oil change. Tranny change sounds like what we were doing, every other engine oil change. That is also when the filter gets changed.

Posted by: fatcat216---------------------

wff-r

The question that's been lingering for me- how often are you guys changing the filters- if dumping the oil that regularly.

Are you saying every other oil change?

Posted by: whenfoxforks-ruled---------------------

Yes, on the Hondas. Engines without separate oil, good luck!

Posted by: Chili---------------------

As I've stated in a few threads, oil changes at 2-3 hours with the odd one creeping to 4 depending on how the riding days line up. Oil Filters changed every 3rd oil change so between 6-9 hours on the meter and the air filter is changed every time the bike is run. We have 8 air filters for my sons bike and 5 for mine and just keeping running through them until it's time to clean a big batch.

Posted by: whenfoxforks-ruled---------------------

What air filter treatment are you using Chili?

Posted by: Chili---------------------

Maxima FFT.

Posted by: SpDyKen---------------------

Definition:

"A Race" -

I beat you and you suck; or, (rarely,)you beat me and I suck, at whatever we were doing on our bikes, at the same time.

Posted by: theKDX200rider---------------------

My oil change is very precise, when I'm low or out of oil I just add some more oil. Between all my bikes I only actually drained and changed oil twice, once after five years of consistent hard riding on the KDX and once after changing the clutch on my 250.

Posted by: Rich Rohrich---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by theKDX200rider

My oil change is very precise, when I'm low or out of oil I just add some more oil. Between all my bikes I only actually drained and changed oil twice, once after five years of consistent hard riding on the KDX and once after changing the clutch on my 250.

... Note to self ... NEVER EVER buy a used bike from this guy.

Posted by: whenfoxforks-ruled---------------------

Do you think the clutch issue and oil changes are related? The clutch debris WILL destroy all the tolerances the engine had, sorry.

Posted by: Cabot---------------------

Not changing your oil is like your body not producing new blood while recycling the old stuff. If its not done, pretty soon its gunna die.

WFF-R - I think someone mistyped over at Honda. I feel bad for the people who don't know any better and are waiting 15 hours to change the oil. I'm sure someone has seen this before and brought it up?

forgot to say, I have a reusable oil filter, clean it every oil change.

Posted by: whenfoxforks-ruled---------------------

Oh yes, that reusable filter IS priceless!

Posted by: _JOE_---------------------

I have trouble getting comfortable with the reusable filters. Just doesn't seem like it would filter as well, I don't know enough about them to say. I'll just keep spending 6 bucks every 6 or 8 hours on a paper filter for now.

Posted by: flyingfuzzball---------------------

i change my oil every 4 hours or before a big ride. and the magnet has been clean since the first change in which it had some fuzz on it from breaking it in. and i will probably change it before my next ride because im at like 11 hours

Posted by: 250girl---------------------

Wow, after reading this I feel like a real idiot. In 3 years I haven't changed the oil in my (2-stroke) WR250. It still shifts just fine, and ran great for about 6 years without a single rebuild. So if you are just trail riding, how often should I be changing my oil on a 2-stroke? I thought all this oil changing stuff was for the wierdo 4-stroke people

Posted by: whenfoxforks-ruled---------------------

Trail bike oil changes should not be as often. Here again, depending on how it is used. But I am sure 250 girl, that oil quit working at least 2 1/2 years ago! Enjoy the smell!

Posted by: _JOE_---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by 250girl

Wow, after reading this I feel like a real idiot. In 3 years I haven't changed the oil in my (2-stroke) WR250. It still shifts just fine, and ran great for about 6 years without a single rebuild. So if you are just trail riding, how often should I be changing my oil on a 2-stroke? I thought all this oil changing stuff was for the wierdo 4-stroke people

That's not uncommon, suprisingly. I have seen lots of bikes run for a long time with little to no maintenance. You can surely feel the difference from a frsh, tight bike.

Posted by: whenfoxforks-ruled---------------------

The WR is a work horse! Still, 3 years? Could be selective memory loss, but I do not ever remember abusing oil since my brand new XR-75, 1974? I read the manual. If the oil looks bad, its real bad! If you waste the clutch, it may not all come out. Clutch debris is bad news. It will act like rubbing compound in the bearings and gears. If you only ride it a few times a year, different story. Its hours on the oil.

Posted by: Ol'89r---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

As I've stated in a few threads, oil changes at 2-3 hours with the odd one creeping to 4 depending on how the riding days line up. Oil Filters changed every 3rd oil change so between 6-9 hours on the meter and the air filter is changed every time the bike is run. We have 8 air filters for my sons bike and 5 for mine and just keeping running through them until it's time to clean a big batch.

This is pretty much the same schedule we use. Most of the modern 4-strokes only use about 3/4 of a quart of engine oil so, even if you use a very expensive oil you're not talking about that much money. Also since you only have under a quart of oil, that is a good reason to change it more often. Less oil will break down quicker. Once the oil breaks down you have less cushion between the moving parts resulting in premature wear.

It's best to use an hour meter on your bike since a race can last anywhere from 10-15 minutes to a couple of hours depending on what kind of racing you are doing. Practise sessions can rack up hours very quickly. The only way to tell for sure is by using an hour meter.

Oil is the life-blood of your engine. IMO you can't change it often enough. This is especially true with engines that share the gearbox and clutch oil with the engine oil.

It's very easy to tell how often the oil has been changed in a used bike. Just smell it. If it smells fresh or slightly burnt, the oils have been changed regularly. If it smells like a couple of dinosaurs crawled in there and died,

that's not good.

Posted by: holeshot---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Rohrich

... Note to self ... NEVER EVER buy a used bike from this guy.

But you don't know who this guy is .... that's why you should always buy new...

Posted by: _JOE_---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by holeshot

But you don't know who this guy is .... that's why you should always buy new...

So true!

Posted by: Solid State---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

… Oil Filters changed every 3rd oil change so between 6-9 hours on the meter and the air filter is changed every time the bike is run….

OMG! I just realized - I’ve never changed my oil filter. Oh – don’t have one. Whew.

Posted by: whenfoxforks-ruled---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solid State

OMG! I just realized - I’ve never changed my oil filter. Oh – don’t have one. Whew.

Nice! YZ250, about every race. Or, every couple of hours. The oil really gets trashed from the clutch, you should have a filter!

Posted by: Chris in Denver---------------------

Wow.... .8 quarts of oil for years? Wow!

I let my lawnmower go for three years. That was very bad. The oil was quite nasty. Two sets of changes later...and it starts much easier.

Posted by: whenfoxforks-ruled---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solid State

OMG! I just realized - I’ve never changed my oil filter. Oh – don’t have one. Whew.

You do have a filter, now.

Posted by: SpeedyManiac---------------------

During prime riding season, I change oil pretty much weekly. I ride all week (after work), change it before a race, go racing, change it after, ride all week, repeat. I usually use cheap ATF type F since I change the oil often. For longer/tougher rides I might put Amsoil 0W-40 Formula 4-stroke in since it's a little easier on the clutch.

Posted by: motometal---------------------

My oil in the 250 gets changed at about five hours of play riding. This is not a lot of high rpms and not too much clutch slipping. The type of oil is not important as frequency, I have given up on using synthetic oil in transmissions/engines simply because from my perspective, the main advantage would be interval between changes...and bikes seem to need/want oil changes more often than that. For example, my street bike starts feeling "notchy" in the transmission somewhere between 2000-2500 miles...regardless of synthetic or non...so it gets changed.

I agree with the skepticism on the cleanable metal filters. The wire mesh will not filter small particles like a paper filter. In my opinion, you would be better off simply leaving the paper filter in there longer if cost is that big of a deal. Has anyone ever heard of a paper filter breaking down and letting debris through? I haven't...in any vehicle. And how many particles are in there when you change it? Not enough to worry about being anywhere close to "full". If it gets really restricted, there is probably a bypass built into the system but honestly by that time if there is that much junk in the filter you have very big problems anyway.

Air filter...I don't think it makes any sense to go by hours, or rides for air fiter changing intervals.

The air filter does its job by making the air particles (and dirt) turn several corners through foam coated with sticky oil. As the particles contact the foam (they tend to want to go straight) they are trapped by the oil. Your filter, if properly oiled and installed, shouldn't pass any dirt unless the oil stops being sticky...or there is so much dirt that the filter can't hold any more. I have seen bikes where the outside was just a ball of dirt...thinking the inside of the filter would show evidence of passing dirt but usually the inside looks very clean yet.

So anyway, as long as the oil coating the foam is tacky and there isn't much dirt/sand/dust stuck to the outside, the filter is still doing its job, at least nearly as well when it was fresh.

If I pop off the seat and the filter looks great...or just slightly dirty...I don't mess with it. If just one little grain of sand gets knocked into the intake boot from the act of changing the filter(which can happen pretty easilly)...you have probably done more damage, than any gain from changing the filter "just because".

Dusty conditions? Sure, the filter might need changing after just one good ride or race. Wet conditions you can go many rides without changing because there is no dust, and since the larger dirt particles have to turn several corners to get to the filter...it stays clean for many hours (or even days) of riding.

Posted by: BSWIFT---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by motometal

My oil in the 250 gets changed at about five hours of play riding. This is not a lot of high rpms and not too much clutch slipping. The type of oil is not important as frequency, I have given up on using synthetic oil in transmissions/engines simply because from my perspective, the main advantage would be interval between changes...and bikes seem to need/want oil changes more often than that. For example, my street bike starts feeling "notchy" in the transmission somewhere between 2000-2500 miles...regardless of synthetic or non...so it gets changed.

I agree with the skepticism on the cleanable metal filters. The wire mesh will not filter small particles like a paper filter. In my opinion, you would be better off simply leaving the paper filter in there longer if cost is that big of a deal. Has anyone ever heard of a paper filter breaking down and letting debris through? I haven't...in any vehicle. And how many particles are in there when you change it? Not enough to worry about being anywhere close to "full". If it gets really restricted, there is probably a bypass built into the system but honestly by that time if there is that much junk in the filter you have very big problems anyway.

Air filter...I don't think it makes any sense to go by hours, or rides for air fiter changing intervals.

The air filter does its job by making the air particles (and dirt) turn several corners through foam coated with sticky oil. As the particles contact the foam (they tend to want to go straight) they are trapped by the oil. Your filter, if properly oiled and installed, shouldn't pass any dirt unless the oil stops being sticky...or there is so much dirt that the filter can't hold any more. I have seen bikes where the outside was just a ball of dirt...thinking the inside of the filter would show evidence of passing dirt but usually the inside looks very clean yet.

So anyway, as long as the oil coating the foam is tacky and there isn't much dirt/sand/dust stuck to the outside, the filter is still doing its job, at least nearly as well when it was fresh.

If I pop off the seat and the filter looks great...or just slightly dirty...I don't mess with it. If just one little grain of sand gets knocked into the intake boot from the act of changing the filter(which can happen pretty easilly)...you have probably done more damage, than any gain from changing the filter "just because".

Dusty conditions? Sure, the filter might need changing after just one good ride or race. Wet conditions you can go many rides without changing because there is no dust, and since the larger dirt particles have to turn several corners to get to the filter...it stays clean for many hours (or even days) of riding.

Posted by: whenfoxforks-ruled---------------------

Getting the air filter wet can cause the air filter oil to gum up. I believe at that point it will run different, and may draw air past the lip easier. If it gets wet, it gets wet. But, I feel it should be serviced as soon as possible. And, NEVER start it after washing!! Worried about that 1 grain of sand, remove the entire subframe. Much more sanitary, and a lot less headache getting the carb in and out.

Posted by: motometal---------------------

not following on drawing air past the lip. If I am understanding correctly, you mean the lip of the filter? Shouldn't that be pinched between the cage (basket) and frame?

You want to avoid getting the filter wet, yes. But on most bikes the airbox is pretty well protected for riding...unless you are doing deep creek crossings etc?

Some bikes will get the filter wet during washing if you are not careful. For this I suggest one of those plastic hair nets with the elastic. Works great. Pop the seat off, put that hair net thingy around the filter, lay the seat loosely back on, and wash away. I like to start my bike after washing if there is any possibility any water made its way backwards up in the pipe, especially if it will be sitting for a long time after that. Exhaust plugs help though.

By the way, dirt bikes don't run well with plastic hairnets covering the air filter...guess how I know.

I have not had a bike where I removed the subframe for cleaning the filter...just haven't found it necesary. Even with that, if you ride enough in sand, it gets everywhere...and wants to get in the "clean" part of your intake system. Grains of sand will hide in strange places such as under the clamp on the air boot, up under the fuel tank, etc. Obviously, at some point you have no choice but to work with the filter etc. but my point was that many folks change the filter every ride, or way too often in some cases, I was just trying to give a different perspective on that because I think it is a waste of time if the filter isn't very dirty and the oil is still tacky.

Another trick is to smear grease on the inside of the intake boot (between the filter and the carb). If somehow a little dirt makes its way into the boot, chances are it will stick in this grease and stay there indefinitely until you clean that area out.

Posted by: wbyrd---------------------

[QUOTE=Cabot]Something that has always bugged me, in both the Clymer Shop Manual and the owners manual for my 05 CRF250R, it says oil change every 5 races or 15 hours, and replace piston and wrings every 5 races of 15 hours. So I'm supposed to be changing my piston and wrings when I change my oil. Not happening for me.

QUOTE]

I just read through this thread and don't think I saw an answer to the part I put in bold above. I have the same bike in the '07 model and this is one of the first things I noticed in the owners manual. I'm very new to riding a dirt bike, but changing the piston and rings every 15 hours seems like a lot of work to me. Is this really necessary? Or is chaning the piston really not a difficult job?

Posted by: truespode---------------------

Depends on the rider and the riding conditions.

I'm a Vet C Harescramble/woods rider and usually go 60+ hours on a top end with my YZ250F (have had 3 so far). Even on my CRF450 I went 50 hours before doing the top end.

Change the oil regularly, keep the air filter fresh and check the valves regularly. When in doubt, do a top end.

Faster riders who live off the rev limiter need to do it more often.

Ivan

Posted by: digifox---------------------

I Change oil ever 6-7 rides or 7-10 hours

But that is on a Trail bike. . . and every time i drain the oil it still looks new(other then the milking from the aluminum after it sits for a day or two after a ride.)

But of coarse i use fluid made for Racing transmissions. . . . So yeah, i guess it just depends on how you ride and what not. . .

Posted by: truespode---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by digifox

But of coarse i use fluid made for Racing transmissions

Please elaborate... this should be good.

Ivan

Posted by: whenfoxforks-ruled---------------------

[QUOTE=digifox]every time i drain the oil it still looks new[QUOTE] I like this one better!! Electron microscope vision? Take it apart at the recommended number of hours, measure the ring end gap and skirt clearance. Sure, some may get longer. Some, may move their bore out of round from a sloppy piston. Some, may never miss the abrupt hit, like when it was new. Every engine is different, every rider is worse! The book is a safe bet, if you are using it for what it was built for. And no one, as in nobody, can look at oil and determine its life. Racing transmissions, I do like that one also.

Posted by: _JOE_---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by wbyrd

[QUOTE=Cabot]Something that has always bugged me, in both the Clymer Shop Manual and the owners manual for my 05 CRF250R, it says oil change every 5 races or 15 hours, and replace piston and wrings every 5 races of 15 hours. So I'm supposed to be changing my piston and wrings when I change my oil. Not happening for me.

QUOTE]

I just read through this thread and don't think I saw an answer to the part I put in bold above. I have the same bike in the '07 model and this is one of the first things I noticed in the owners manual. I'm very new to riding a dirt bike, but changing the piston and rings every 15 hours seems like a lot of work to me. Is this really necessary? Or is chaning the piston really not a difficult job?

I did mine at 64 or so hours. I hadn't noticed any power loss or harder starting or anything. I swapped in a high compression piston and it was a much noticeable improvement. The job isn't extremely difficult with a decent tool box and the owner's Competition Handbook. I do plan to pull it down at 15 hours and take a look at everything. Here's a link to a thread with some pics of the stock top end......http://www.dirtrider.net/forums3/sh...ad.php?t=158258

Change the oil as frequently as possible.

Posted by: digifox---------------------

1. Yes i use TCI Racing Transmission fluid. . .
its oil made BY TCI for their Transmissions that run a Trans break. . .

2. yeah. . .well i guess a 2T should have Carbon in its oil huh. . . .
Seriously though every time i drain my oil in a bucket its still the same "oil" color it was when i put it in there. . . (TCI fluid is the same color as engine oil)

Maybe im not hart on my clutch or whatever but i swear i never have "gross" oil come out of this thing other then when i drained it when i got it. . . . its never had flakes or anything. . .

Dont believe me?
Fine.

Posted by: Rich Rohrich---------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by digifox

1. Yes i use TCI Racing Transmission fluid. . .
its oil made BY TCI for their Transmissions that run a Trans break. . .

ahhhhhhh ....... the blissful comfort of ignorance.

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Definition of "a race"

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