DirtRider . Net MX, SX, Arena Cross, Off-Road Community

This is the text version of DirtRider.Net
Click Here for the Full Version

Pages: 1

Notoil>>bad?
(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Posted by: clw---------------------

Since switching over to Notoil we just had our second top end seizure in 6 months. Besides switching to Notoil I believe our routine hasn't changed. Are we alone?

I like the ease of cleaning, but these $600 bills are getting out of hand!

Posted by: Anssi---------------------

I see little possibility of the quality of the air filter oil causing top-end seizures. Crapped out big-end bearings from dust and sand getting through, yes. Ring damage from the same, possibly.

I would look at other causes, too (clogged jets, air leaks).

Posted by: clw---------------------

Quote:

Crapped out big-end bearings from dust and sand getting through, yes.

Both engines had beat crank bearings, the last bike only had 15 hours on the motor. My thoughts are that if you are racing in standing water and mud conditions the Notoil filter lets a lot of this through the filter. In the past (over 10 years of riding), using petroleum based filter oils, I never lost crank bearings. Plus, upon disassembly both pistons showed sand damage on the intake sides of the piston. I think it (Notoil) is probably best when used in dusty conditions but not if it's wet.

Posted by: Lemming---------------------

I've been using No Toil for more than a year and love the stuff. No problems so far. I do change my airfilter after every ride to be on the safe side. And yes, we have a lot of standing water and mud in AL, not to mention a lot of dust at times.

Posted by: reynome---------------------

I too have been using No Toil for over a year and have not had any probs. At first I wasnt putting enough oil on the filter and did see some dust get thru the dry spots but now I saturate the filters and have had great results in not getting any dust by the filter.

When I wash my bike I have occasonally sprayed up the the air box and after changing the filter shortly there after I did notice it pushed dirt thru the filter. You may have something there when riding thru very wet conditions. If I rode in those conditions I would probably take a old filter and cut it up and using the old type filter oil on those pieces put them over any vents in your air box. That would take care of any major splashing. If you still have a problem you better switch to submarines.

Posted by: Whoops---------------------

Two years with No-Toil and no problems.

Whoops

Posted by: Senior KX Rider---------------------

I have used no-toil for two years also. No problems .

Posted by: clw---------------------

In the next day or two I'll take a Notoil treated filter and a Maxima FFT treated filter and run water over them to see if there's a difference. I'll post the results.

I, too, have been a big fan of Notoil for over a year, but that may change.

I've noticed that the boot is actually pretty clean even after contamination has passed. I wonder if the Notoil product is breaking down from carb fogging or something. The cage will have some sand, mud or dirt caught in the webbing. It really shows up on a white filter cage.

I'll pick up some FFT Friday and test.

Posted by: angry jim---------------------

Any chance you're knocking dirt off the filter and into the intake?

Posted by: clw---------------------

I first wipe down the frame rails and upper airbox. Pull dirty filter off to the rear and then inspect with a light looking down the airboot. Wipe the upper frame rails again, and then install the new filter. Same as I've been doing for a long time.

The webbing is dirty on the cage, so most of the dirt is getting by.

Posted by: Mac---------------------

Are you using the no-toil grease around the filter rim?

Posted by: BRush---------------------

So far so good with No-Toil. I switched this year and have been pretty careful about inspecting the inside of the boot and filter at each change for anything passing though. Clean as a whistle.

Posted by: clw---------------------

There's always a coating of grease on the sealing edge.

Again, the inside of the airboot has always looked clean. I find , after a muddy/water splashing ride, some dirt on the cage, but the boot and inside of the filter always look clean. After the second breakdown I was told by the mechanic that a lot of contaminates went through the motor, I didn't believe him till I saw the cylinder and piston damage.

I even suspected that possibly the boot was damaged or loose allowing unfiltered air (and Dirt) an unfiltered path to the motor, but upon inspection didn't find anything wrong. So I'm baffled. Like I said before, the only change I've made in chemicals or much anything was to start using Notoil last year so it's my suspect.

What's baffling is that years ago we had some real enduros. You know the kind where you get stuck up to the seat, cross repeated deep water and in general abuse the bike. Never had a problem then. Of course the airboxes of that era only took in air through the top. Todays airboxes have drains that are big enough to put 3 fingers in without a one-way valve. They aren't designed for torture runs.

Maybe it's just my turn to have some bad luck. Thanks for all the responses.

Posted by: HiG4s---------------------

What kind of bike and filter?

Posted by: clw---------------------

1. 2000 YZ250 w/Notoil filter
2. 2001 Gas Gas 250 w/ Notoil filter

Do any National riders (or Pros) use Notoil?

Posted by: Anssi---------------------

I think Joel Smets uses or at least endorses No-Toil.

Posted by: HiG4s---------------------

I haven't had any problems using No-Toil on the Husqvarna or the XR100 (the yz is too new, haven't had to clean the filter yet) but both are using stock factory filters.

Is any one else here using No-Toil filters? Could this be the problem? I just ordered one for my Husky.

Posted by: smb_racing---------------------

I've been running no-toil filter and oil for a year now, no problems at all on my 1993 KDX. Did you get water up into your airbox at any point during the time you've used no-toil? There is nothing that will stop water from getting into the motor if it gets into the airbox. So the test of running water over the filters isn't really an accurate test in my opinion, no kind of filter oil is going to form a barrier to keep water from going through the filter.

Posted by: oldguy---------------------

We run no toil oil and filters on all our bikes and have never had a problem. We do change filters religiouisly after a day of racing (sometimes mid day also if very dusty) using the ziplock bag method of coating.
Are you sure you shook the bottle of oil well before use. Notoil uses an alcohol carrier which evaporates out and leaves the oil. without shaking you could have coated the filter with nothing but alcohol which then evaporated away:scream:

Posted by: bud---------------------

Clw, I have just gone thru something similar - muddy water getting thru the air filter which scratched up the piston and cylinder, as well getting in the carb and making the throttle stick open :silly:.

I don't use no toil though. I use motul, which has been great until I started doing deep water crossings. My impression is that once water gets sucked thru the filter once, it will get thru much more quickly the second time.

Two things I am going to try are covering the holes on the sides and bottom of the airbox with some sort of mesh that lets air thru, but not water. Also a different, thicker oil. The motul oil is as thin as water, though it gets tacky after a minute or two. I think what may be happening is, though the filter gets completely submerged in oil, I squeeze it out before it gets tacky. That might be leaving patches of the filter that don't have enough oil on them, ie where water could get thru more easily. I think that would be less likely to happen with a thicker oil.

Posted by: RetSenior---------------------

No problems here with No-Toil. Been using it on a 2001 KTM 520 EXC sence new. 2 No-Toil filters with 2 Twin Air filters.

Posted by: clw---------------------

First off, it's all ad copy.

Notoil, on its website, claims its product is waterproof and at another place water resistant. A treated filter with their product holds (saturates) and passes water easily. If the filter gets wet, be it splash or submersion, it will allow the liquid through. Of course the dirt will probably go with the water and out the exhaust. My very unscientific test was under static conditions, I couldn't simulate air movement (suction) that would be occurring under actual conditions.

On to Maxima FFT. Their bottle also makes the waterproof claim along with a statement that it's a "superior oil for stopping the passage of dirt...water and other harmful elements". It also will pass water, but I think being an oil base product it does resist (bead up) splash water a little better than Notoil. I guess Notoil is a polar chemical and as such will always choose to bond with water.

From now on I'll definitely try to seal up the airbox better in wet conditions. Also, I'm very concerned with the large openings both these bikes have in the bottom of their airboxes, deep stream crossings don't have to be THAT deep if you're ridding a bike that is already into its travel and all the water has to do is get 1-2" above the BOTTOM of the airbox. My water depth/riding gauge is still based on the old RMX, your knees got wet before water would spill over into the top of the airbox.

Oh, one last thing. I can't tell if Smets uses their product or not. On the Notoil website he's on the same page as old movie actors and circus clowns! I never saw a solid statement that he uses the product and helped him win numerous championships, etc., etc.

Bud:

Where do you ride? That's some kind of good looking woods.

Oldguy:

I might not be shaking the bottle enough. On accasion I've noticed a residual amount of product in the bottom ofthe bottle.

Posted by: angry jim---------------------

Clw

I don't know about Smets. Around here, the Garrahan brothers are sponsored by No-Toil. They use the same filters that you or I can get in the store. Since they run the National Hare Scrambles and Enduro series', I think that the filters see lot's of abuse. The only problem I've hear of them having is clogging up the filter in a very dusty Arizona race. I use a Twinair and a NO-toil filter with equal results.

I agree that Bud's riding area looks very sweet.

Posted by: GlennP---------------------

CLW,

Been there, fixed that. I run No-Toil on my GG filters with no problems. I have noticed in the past the bottom of my filters were very wet and dirty. What I do is cut foam blocks 1" thick to a compression fit in the airbox drain well. Treat these with filter oil and change/clean with filter. This slows the ingress of water through the oversize drain during a crossing, and will still allow any splash water from the top (unlikely) to slowely drain out. The ony time I get water on the filter now is if I don't plug the grab handle holes/intakes before washing the bike.

FYI, I have had sand, dirt, and water go eaisly through a BelRay oil treated filter on a KTM twice, once sticking the throttle and once wrecking the motor. My view is once they get wet, your in trouble, no matter what oil it is.

Posted by: clw---------------------

Given the observed affinity of a Notoil filter to water, and the shock my checkbook is in, I'm going back to either Maxima or Belray again. Not to say that under drier conditions Notoil works very well. Probably the problem is rooted in the drain design of the airboxes (and my competitive nature), I will try Glennp's foam trap block idea. It's an interesting solution that I haven't heard of before. My longstanding argument of the relative cheapness of dirt biking is under scrutiny by the boss, and rightfully so.

Does anyone have any clever ideas on preventing splash water from finding its way to the filter?

Posted by: Whoops---------------------

clw,

Your test doesn't hold water

Air moving through the filter is the basic function of the air filter. If it held water, it would be air tight ( or close to it) and that would be bad.

The question you are trying to answer is, does the effectiveness of the fliter oil deteriorate with water? That question will be answered with a different test. You need to prepare the filters with the appropiate oil, expose them to water, then blow dust through them to see how much dust they collect. The last part is the tricky part. You might employ a vacum cleaner in to pull the air through the filter.

Anyway, it's still a free country, and you get to use what ever oil make you happy.

Whoops

Posted by: clw---------------------

Whoops:

Quote:

Originally posted by clw
My very unscientific test was under static conditions, I couldn't simulate air movement (suction) that would be occurring under actual conditions.

See, I knew that!

What I expected to see was water to run off (you know, like a freshly waxed car) the treated filter as I sprinkled it . And, it did a little on the oil based filter, less so on the Notoil filter. In actual use, wet sand was washed off the filter and migrated through the motor. Then there was plenty of suction involved! Like I said before, neither product performed as I had hoped, that's why I'm trying to seal up the airbox better so next time (hopefully)the filter won't even be exposed to water and it's suspended contaminants.

Thanks, one and all, for your comments.

Posted by: roostinbe---------------------

re-seal the air boot-to-box joint, with weather strip adhesive. that will esure that you don't have any air leaks. also check the intake manifold for cracks. had you ever changed the top end on either of the bikes??? maybe they were just worn out. are you sure they were jetted properly? there are sooo many things that can cause a bike to seize. the filter oil, and grease, are the very least suspect components of the intake system, to fail.

Posted by: Yamamoto---------------------

I have done a few test as well ....well trial and error

I have found that if you do not allow your (no-Toil) filter to dry before you install it the alachol will run into your air boot ..into your carb ...mix with gas and harden.

I have also noticed that the alachol will break down your premix oil.

These can easily be avoided with just allowing dry time.(do not put the filter on wet).

anyone who put it on wet will find that the filter is dryer on top and wet on the bottom

Posted by: GlennP---------------------

Yamamoto is absolutely right. Its also important to shake the hell out of the bottle before use. I prep and let dry several at a time and store in bags so I don't have to wait. If your in a hurry, careful use of clean compressed air will speed drying. I don't believe the No-Toil resists water any less than the petroleum oils when applied correctly. Ever try to wash the stuff off your hands without the cleaner?

Posted by: Jeepboy---------------------

About how many filter oilings does one bottle of No-toil supply? I've been using No-toil for a few months now, but it seems like I only get 3 oilings from one bottle and those bottles are more expensive than traditional filter oils.

Posted by: Yamamoto---------------------

Did I spell it that way twice? lmao

In all respects ....No-Toil is BETTER in wet conditions, take a bucket of water and submerge your No-Toiled filter vs your Petro Filter, then squeeze.

Just like anything else .....you gota do it right.

The only thing I miss about petro oils is that it leaves a nice film on the inside of my air boot that would catch and hold any dirt that got by.

However I do not have that problem when using NO-TOIL,

I over oil the piss out of it and let it dry before install.

Last thing on no-toil if it drys (to long) it hardens and is not as tacky, so if you did your filter 3 weeks ago and did not ride ( you need to redo it)

Posted by: clw---------------------

Wow, lots of questions:

roostinbe
Other avenues for unfiltered air checked on both bikes, both jetted as they were delivered, the Yamaha was pure factory and the Gas Gas was at the dealer changed settings. Age; Yamaha top end 5 months (maybe 30 hours) the Gas Gas was 2 months new (12 hours+/-). The yamaha seized because the main bearings were damaged by the sand, and the main seal let air in leaning out the mixture and it came to a stop. The GG piston was all scratched up on the intake side and a mild seizure on the exhaust side with the chrome chipped off next to the exhaust port, say big $. Gas Gas firmly placed the blame on what went through the motor, not mixture, oil, etc.

Yamamoto
Do you oil your filters more than once to get it "over-oiled"? You know, wait 15 minutes and then re-oil?

Gulp, if it does harden after 3 weeks that is a problem in itself, anyone else notice this? Does No-toil warn of this?

Your observation of the inside of the boot is something I mentioned earlier, it always looked clean even after passing contaminates faking me out, unlike those gooey oil based products and their film.

GlennP
I've got a stock Yamaha filter that's falling apart at the seams. Is this what you cut up to plug the airbox drain?

Yes, I'm a bad bad shaker. BTW, the cleaner gets real HOT when you dump it on your hands for clean up, can you say catalyst.

Jeepboy
I got, on average but I'm finding out I'm no expert, about 5 filters per bottle.

Posted by: BRush---------------------

Quote:

Originally posted by Yamamoto
Last thing on no-toil if it drys (to long) it hardens and is not as tacky, so if you did your filter 3 weeks ago and did not ride ( you need to redo it)

I noticed this when I went to install a spare filter I oiled about 4-5 weeks previously that had been sitting in a plastic bag (not airtight). I thought at the time, that I might have under oiled it or did not shake the bottle well. Have you ever tried sealing the newly oiled filter in an air tight container to preserve “tackiness”? I was thinking of trying that, but I wonder about the effect on the filter construction of not letting the alcohol carrier evaporate.

If the filter will dry out from just sitting around for a couple of weeks, then it also raises the question about how often you need to change the filter (elapsed time since changing, not riding time) to keep the engine protected

Posted by: Yamamoto---------------------

I have to maintain 4 Bikes so I had to come up with a system that is affective and easy.
Friday night
1st I Lube all filters (from Shelf)
2nd Pull all old filters out
3rd Wash all old filters (set on shelf to let air dry)
4th take my lubed filters (because thay had dry time between unbolting seats and pulling filters) and install them
5th put seats back on.

I do it once a week every friday, but this last weekend I left the dirty ones in because I was not riding this past weekend.

It only takes about 1-1/2 -2 hrs to dry so somtimes after I wash the filters I [pickle aroung getting riding gear together to add drying time.

P.S. if no-Toil runs down your airboot into the carb...YOU WILL HAVE PROBLEMS.

take a bit of gas and put a small splash of NO-Toil oil in it.

Posted by: clw---------------------

Quote:

Originally posted by Yamamoto
take a bit of gas and put a small splash of NO-Toil oil in it.

Will it explode? Come on, tell us what happens.

Posted by: Yamamoto---------------------

no explosion.

It just crystalizes and and turns rock hard, and what reallt sucks is that its liquid as it enters through the jet and hardens clogging your jet so bad that you must throw it out, well Main you can poke a needle through but the pilot ...forget it

Text Version Home

This is the text version of DirtRider.Net Click Here for the Full Version

Notoil>>bad?

This is the text version of DirtRider.Net
Click Here for the Full Version