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New CRF450 and it's a bitch to start! Help!

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Posted by: vince321---------------------

The starting and stalling issues with my new bike have put a damper on what should have been an exciting purchase. Let me outline some problems below with the hopes that someone will have a solution or fix for these issues.



1. When the bike is cold, it is very difficult to start. Most of the times it is thirty plus kicks before it will fire up.



2. Once started, it needs to warm up for three or four minutes before putting into gear or else it will stall as soon as it's put into first.



3. Once the bike is finally started, it will idle pretty decent for a minute or so and then sometimes cut out and stall. This is not a consistent problem, but it makes me feel that I have to keep revving the engine or else it will die.



4. There are also some stalling issues that I've experience while riding. If I pull in the clutch while moving along in third gear, with out revving the engine, the engine will,at times, cut out and die.



5. Once the engine is hot, the bike will start pretty good. Usually two or three kicks.



I think there might be some idleing issues that need to be ironed out. I've turned the idle adjuster screw both in and out and it seems to have little to no effect on my idle speed. Does some one know if turning the screw in increases or decreases idle speed? Should I mess with the pilot screw or leave it alone?



Any advice is much appreciated.


Posted by: DougRoost---------------------

Sounds like the jetting is way too lean, assuming you're of course following the manual on how to start it and such. Was this bike set up in a different part of the country than you are? If you got it from a local dealer I'd call them and ask their assistance.


Posted by: dheard4992---------------------

mine-twist throttle 2 to 3 times pull out choke,hand off throttle kick 1 to 3 times ,idle 30 seconds , push choke in then go.when warm pull hot start lever , hand off throttle and kick once mabey twice.


Posted by: HiG4s---------------------

Wasn't there a thread here before on this? I thought there was someone that had the same type problems and found that the bike had come from the factory with the carb twisted slightly in the mount (off to the side instead of straight up and down) and once he aligned it starting got much better?


Posted by: yarbonwick---------------------

At either rate there is definitely something wrong with either rider or bike. EVERYBODY and I mean EVERYBODY praises of how easy this thing should start. See your dealer. You paid all of that money and that's what they are there for.


Posted by: Big Tuna---------------------

Did a manual come with the bike? Which way to turn the idle screw, along with trouble shooting tips should be in there.


Posted by: storytime---------------------

Do what dheard4992 said as this is how the bike should start, LEAVE YOUR HAND OFF THE THROTTLE! If your delema still prosists check not only the plug but the plug cap!


Posted by: CR Swade---------------------

Make sure not to hold the hot start lever in like a decompression lever( not that you are). I have witnessed though people pulling this lever when cold like a decompression lever and the bike won' t start at all.

I found just the choke when cold and the bike lights right up.


Posted by: MotoGreg---------------------

Ok, judging by what you've said you do have a problem. The idle screw (the one that takes a flat blade screw driver) just opens the throttle slide... screw it in clockwise and it opens the throttle. The mixture screw on the bottom is a fuel screw, not an air screw like a two stroke so you turn it out counterclockwise to richen. You should be around 1 to 1.5 turns out. It's hard to get to the screw, my Pro-Tec tool for my YZF won't work on the CRF, the tunnel through the float bowl is too tight.

After you check the mixture screw, check for any vacuum leaks... the intake boot, etc... You never know, you could have something wrong from the factory, my bike ran great once it started but I could barely kick it over because the auto compression release was adjusted way out of spec. Now it starts as easily as my g/f's TTR125!


Posted by: mxaddict---------------------

My bike was this way when I picked it up...the problem? Simply an EXTREMELY over-oiled air filter. I cleaned it and re-oiled it, and presto...started just like they said it would. Always try the simple stuff first.


Posted by: vince321---------------------

Well, as far as starting technique, I've done exactly as the manual states. Pull out the choke, don't touch the throttle and kick it over. After a dozen tries, I usually push in the choke and if this doesn't work, I'll try to give it a little gas or pull in the hot start lever. Typically, I try everything untill it starts.

If the thing would just start with the choke pulled out like the manual states, it would keep me from messing with other techniques.

I will check the spark plug and clean the air filter today. Possibly it has too much oil in it.

Also, the manual does not state wich direction to turn the throttle stop screw (for adj. idle) to increase idle speed .

I don't think the bike is running too lean. Once It lights up, there isn't any back firing or pinging, it runs well. (Other than the stalling issues listed above).

If none of the above works, I'll have to take it in to a dealer.

Thanks for the advise.


Posted by: vince321---------------------

I just checked air filter and spark plug. Air filter may have been a little wet. I squeezed as much oil as I could out of it an re-installed. Than I checked my spark plug it it was black and a little wet. My bike must be running too rich. After putting everything back together, I couldn't get it to start at all. It fired a couple of times and then died immediately. My next effort will be to replace the spark plug and then turn in the mixture screw in a 1/4 turn to see if leaning it out will help.

If any of the above steps are incorrect, please advise.

Thanks


Posted by: DFerr---------------------

I read something about the slide in the carb can be put in backwards. A mistake at the factory. Someone had this problem. If it's in backwards it wont close all the way. I think the thread was here, but it may be on Thumpertalk.com


Posted by: sfc crash---------------------

man, that's bad. i feel for ya. no info here, just sympathy. getting your brand new bike home and having to "work " on it i hope you get that bike tuned up and hummin', suposed to be a sweet ride.


Posted by: biglou---------------------

A tip-Put the fuel screw to stock (1.5 turns out?) and go from there. If you start adjusting on it without knowing where you are starting from, you won't know where you are at. Count the turns to turn it all the way in (clockwise) just to see where it was initially at. Then put it to stock and adjust as necessary from that point.


Posted by: DFerr---------------------

Plate on slide could be upside down. It's on Thumpertalk.com under Jetting problems.


Posted by: vince321---------------------

O.K. I went and purchased two new plugs at $25.00 a pop with the thought that I'd install a new one and turn the fuel screw out 1 1/2 turns to see what happens. I knew there was very little distance between the fuel screw and the carberatuer/tunnel area, so I stopped and bough the shortest screw driver I could find. Once home, out to the garage and the screw driver is still way to long. So, there must be a special tool that can be purchased from a dealership to adjust this right? I called Wild West Honda and Honda of Houston and neither of them new what I was talking about. Honda of Houston did say that I could bring the bike into them and they would work on it for $56.00/hour. Wild West won't touch a carb.

On to my question. Does anyone know where I can purchase a tool to turn the fuel screw? Or do I need to remove the carb. to adjust?


This is no longer any fun............


Posted by: Shaw520---------------------

You can probaly use the' drive tip' like from a cordless screw driver, and just turn it with you fingers, I would quess this is where your starting problems lie.


Posted by: morgan---------------------

Don't feel alone. I'm about ready to pull my hair out. This is the first bike in along time that I actually swore at out loud. Hicupping, stalling SOB. Going to look at the upside down plate on the throttle slide problem tomorrow.


Posted by: TexKDX---------------------

Who did you buy the bike from?


Posted by: Marklx---------------------

Quote:
Originally posted by vince321


On to my question. Does anyone know where I can purchase a tool to turn the fuel screw? Or do I need to remove the carb. to adjust?


This is no longer any fun............


I saw a link for a fuel screw adjuster called the kouba link. http://www.koubalink.com/ Looks like the answer to the acces problem. When I had a pumper carb on my old bike, I used a real short screwdriver built for car carb adjustments, found it at www.performanceproducts.com . It seems that the kouba part is a better solution, though. Hope you get it right, soon.

Mark


Posted by: vince321---------------------

I purchased the bike from a friend who is located out of state. It was a win lose situation, I got a good deal and helped him out, but now it's difficult to service. This time I rolled the bones and came up on the short side of the stick.

Anyway, I tried to use a "drive tip" drill bit, but the screw is too tight to turn by hand.

BTW, the bike started easier today. This thing may be very sensitive to weather conditions. Earlier in the week, our weather in Houston was cold and very wet. Just now, it started after ten or twelve kicks, idled for a while and then died with a loud pop. I played with the idle ajustment nob until it would idle for a few minutes, with out dying.

The thing is still way too rich and it's driving me nuts because I've got my wifes company christmas party today and then I'm flying to MN. for business tomorrow morning at 6:45A.M. It doesn't look like I'll be able to work on the problem again until Thursday.


Posted by: XRpredator---------------------

To get to the air screw, go down to your local auto parts store and get one of those little flexible carburetor adjusting screwdrivers and JB weld the tip you need into the end.

Find your local Honda dealer and see if they can help you out as well.

p.s. when you check the plug and it's wet, it's usually junk! Sometimes you can use a lighter and burn off all the fouling, but not always.


Posted by: grneggz---------------------

I have an XR250 and I use a drive tip from a cordless drill with a 1/4" ratchet and a 1/4" socket and that's how I adjust my fuel screw.

Did your friend have this type of problem with the bike before you bought it? Did he ride it very much? Did it start acting up after you bought it?

Is it possible that you have some bad gas with water in it? Also if the bike is from a different region and you brought it to Houston, which is right at sea level then the jetting may need to be changed.

Good luck I'm sure you will get it straightened out.


Posted by: TexKDX---------------------

Quote:
Originally posted by XRpredator

p.s. when you check the plug and it's wet, it's usually junk! Sometimes you can use a lighter and burn off all the fouling, but not always.


Good point, Pred. Let's not forget this is a RACE BIKE that may not respond well to putting around the neighborhood, and may need jetting to get it running right in certain conditions.

Tell you what 321, if you are too pertubed to deal with the bike, I'm in Houston too and will take it off your hands.


Posted by: Smitty---------------------

Sears has a super short screwdriver everyone at TTalk is using. It's about $2 and uses replaceable tips. They ususally have it up by the register.


Posted by: akc1955---------------------

Here is the link to a picture of the tool avalable at Sears. You buy the round, knurled knob (available in three colors!) and then insert a hex screwdriver bit.

http://hometown.aol.com/daveyg111/myhomepage/index.html

Good luck getting your bike setup!

Regards,
Keith Cutler


Posted by: morgan---------------------

Vince, two guys over at TT rejeted to the specs for 5000 to 6000 ft elevation regardless of their actual elevation. Specs are in the manual. Tried it myself and it did wonders.


Posted by: wfocrusty---------------------

Just push the black button on the right side of the handlebar and .....oh, nevermind.




Posted by: Traildale1---------------------

I had very similar problems with my YZ250F a couple months ago. It became very hard to start, and had a problem idling and would stall and die unless you kept revving it.
Took it to the dealer and they pulled the carb and cleaned out the pilot jet and passages with carb cleaner. Said it was a very common problem this year. Bad gas gummed up in the pilot circuit, after that bike sat for only a couple weeks.
It runs like a dream now. Starts first kick usually. The trick is to drain the carb float bowl after every ride. There's a Phillips screw on the bottom of the bowl that opens an internal drain and dumps the bowl out a drain hose - takes only 5 seconds to do.


Posted by: vince321---------------------

Well , I finally decided to bring my bike into the dealer and have them check it out. They looked at it and and then told me that they adjusted the choke/hot start and that the problem should be solved. I brought the bike home and went out to start it this morning (Even though I can't ride because of the freaking rain......)and it started after ten kicks. This is better than where it was, but still needs some work. The dealership didn't touch the carb. and I'm sure the bike is running rich. Once my bike started, it ideled like crap and would die out after a few seconds. If I adjust the idel high enough, it will run with out dying. Anyway, thanks for the advice from the people who have posted to my question. From these responses, I will try the following:

1. Adjust the fuel screw to try and lean it out ( I still haven't been able to find a tool)
2. Check the carb to make sure the plate isn't in upside down.
3. If neither of these work, jet it for 6000 ft.


Posted by: morgan---------------------

Vince, honest try the 6000 ft jetting. I had the EXACT same problems. I know of at least three guys that had to do the same. Check out this thread http://www.thumpertalk.com/bike/cgi...c&f=29&t=000369 read Bob Rollins. Bob and I figure the bike must have been jetted stock for 6000 ft BELOW sea level. A majority of the bikes seem to be ok with the orginal jetting but it seems like there is a good number with a deviaton from the norm. Maybe some passage was drilled different in the carb for a week during the production run. Who knows for sure but this is worth a try. If it works for you, a guy a TT named Xyzguy deserves the credit. Hope that link above works. Good luck and keep us posted.


Posted by: Scott in KC---------------------

Find a socket to fit that screwdriver bit you have. Mark the bit on one side so you can see how many times you turn it. Tighten it all the way in, count the turns. Let's say it was 2 turns. Loosen the screw back out 1 1/2 turns, this will be 1/2 turn leaner, and give it a try. Keep going 1/2 a turn and test ride it until you find what works best. I found my WR426 running very rich while getting the needle & jetting changed, I had to use the hotstart even when cold & NO CHOKE, until I got it figured out. If it's running rich, stay away from the choke and don't touch the throttle before starting!

Did you let the filter oil dry before you tried starting it? This alone can wreak havoc on your carb...or maybe your buddy did the same thing??

If the pilot screw doesn't cure the problem then you need to go IN! Get your manual out, remove the carb completely, get some brake cleaner & comressed air and blow it all out. Check the slide as mentioned above, the slide should be completely closed when looking at it from the engine side. They can & do get put in wrong! Study the manual, study the carb and get used to where everything is. This carb has fuel jets, main & pilot AND air jets, main & pilot...AND one effects the other. WRITE down what jets you have and what needle you have and it's clip position. Chances are you'll be fiddling with jets down the road...you will save yourself, and those trying to help you, a lot of time by knowing this info.

Bottom line....it's just a simple carb problem...you WILL get it figured out!:D


Posted by: bschoch---------------------

Vince, the simplest fix is to buy a YZF!

Just kidding, the Honda's a good bike. I hate to hear about a man fighting with his bike like that, it's just not right!

One quick comment, the idle screw should be turned clockwise to increase the engine idle. It may take turning it 1-2 full turns to notice the difference.
Quote:
Like John Daly says, "Grip it and rip it"



Posted by: rollingp---------------------

Dont have any of these problems with KTMs


Posted by: trewent---------------------

I have called Thumper Racing for the last 5 thumpers I have had, and I realy regretted the one bike I had and didn' t get the jetting specs from them, they are always darn close for myself who can't begin to understand the engineering dynamics of carburation(?)!


Posted by: slowmo---------------------

In addition to the pilot screw...

Regarding the oil filter, you said you wringed out the excess oil. What type of oil? I'm sure you know that an overoiled filter is not good for these thumpers. I use No-Toil for several reasons, not to mention that it tends to be less "wet" than a regular filter oil. (Generally, I find that normal filter oil continues to ooze after I wring it out several times.) I always let the freshly oil filter dry out for a day before I try and start the bike. If I forget that advice, the bike will start, cough and die. Will not restart until I replace the plug.


Posted by: Mr. Clean---------------------

Didn't you say that you bought it used from a friend? I bet the bike sat up and the carb. is slightly varnished. Improper combustion due to lean conditions can smell like it is running rich. Also if you have to use the choke alot because it will die off choke until it warms up you may be fouling the plug slightly and this is compounding the problem. I know how you feel because a friend of mine bought a new RMX 250 and it ran rich with the snorkel and lean with it remove! It took us half a day to get it right. Then we had to start all over again when he added an aftermarket pipe. You would think these days the manufacturer would do better.Hang in there, You will learn alot about the bike in the process and you forget you ever had these problems a month after you get it figured out. ( I'm just trying to cheer you up!)
Kurt in Willis TX.


Posted by: 7075T6---------------------

The 450 is very sensitive for changes in the temperature.
Where I ride in Sweden we have snow and zero to minus 15 centigrade for the moment. -Changed the pilot to #50 and some fine adjustment on the mixture screw,5-th on the neeedle and 178 main. Runs perfect and starts in 1-2 kicks.The CRF,s are usually LEAN ,thats the problem.



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