DirtRider . Net MX, SX, Arena Cross, Off-Road Community

This is the text version of DirtRider.Net
Click Here for the Full Version

Pages: 1

TORO Race 3
(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Posted by: darnjr---------------------

On the way to Muenster, I figured that the Red River Dirt Riders would lay out a good track and surprise us with their ability to link miles and miles of trail together in new and unique ways. I don’t think anyone was disappointed.
I had read Patman Hall’s pre-race recon and I specifically recall him saying that the layout of the track did not include some of the very long whoop sections. That was true. What he didn’t say was that there were several smaller whoop sections throughout the 8 mile loop that equaled about 2 miles worth of whoops. It was whoop city and they were big and sandy.

Saturdays track was a lot of fun during the 1 hour designated practice. There were the aforementioned whoop sections, LOTS of sand, some slippery muddy stuff, some straight-aways that were deceptively soft, a few rocky areas, some one-line bumpy uphills, and basically a little of everything that makes cross-country so much fun. Alternate lines were beginning to form in some areas and it was raining lightly.

On the way home Saturday, it was pretty much pouring and Taraker called me and said he didn’t think he was coming back out for Sunday’s race. He raced in the mud-pit at Extremeland and didn’t want a repeat. He wasn’t alone considering the low turnout on Sunday. When I got to the gate on Sunday I asked how the track was and a fellow said “It’s not so bad, just stay on the gas”, to which I replied “Aren’t you the guy who said the same thing to me at Extremeland? (Scott “Spodekill” Wilson), and he said “no way, I was telling people to go away at Extremeland.” Mistaken identity, I guess.
It rained all night Saturday and was still raining on Sunday when the Mini’s and Ladies race started at about 9:15. There were only about 4-5 racers on each line, with about 5 lines. There were a number of rescue missions that morning due to stuck and dead bikes, which leads to my first complaint:
Due to the lack of spectators, who usually help stuck riders, RRDR should have recognized and positioned members in areas that racers were likely to get stuck in. Especially for ladies and minis who are often unable to get their bikes unstuck.

During the start of that race, I was talking to Preacher Jim of RFC Ministries and he says “I think it’s gonna clear up.” So, thinking that Preacher Jim might have some heavenly insight, I say “Oh, yeah?” and he says, “Yeah, clear up to our knees.” I thought that was funny. It rained steadily all day long and the creek crossings ended up being knee deep.
Anyway, the pros and experts got started at about 11:00am with the instructions that they would race 45 minutes or three laps, whichever came first. The start was fun to watch because the first two racers to the first turn would absolutely shower everyone within 40 feet with mud. Some guys looked like they had put in 3 laps by the second turn cause they were so muddy. I watched the race from the bank of a creek and across the way I could see a downhill that ended in a sharp left and then big whoops. That area was so bad that any hesitation out of the corner would result in getting stuck. About every fourth person got stuck, three people would go around, and then the fourth would get stuck and so on. The creek crossing in front of me was knee deep and the water was flowing very fast. Pros and experts were hitting it wide open and drifting a few feet downstream before hitting the whooped out sand on the other side. The water had those big waves in it with the little white caps on top. I would have never tried to cross it without seeing a few others do it first.
After the Experts raced, it was determined that some of the wooded areas were really bad so the decision was made to re-route the track. Actually, about 2/3 of the track was cut out taking it from an 8 mile loop to about 3 miles.
So, I got off to a good start in the driving rain, (my KLX has never let me down on a dead engine start, only after I fall and need a valve adjustment) and as I hit third in the second, muddy, uphill corner, my clutch lever got stuck and wouldn’t disengage so I had to pull over and wiggle it around. (Later that night I figured out it was hitting the handguard) This put me in last but I figured I’d catch a few people somewhere. During the first lap I fell once and got stuck once, and with that behind me, I was off and racing. Unfortunately, someone decided to shorten the amateur program to about 20 minutes plus one lap, and as I finished the third lap, and was feeling good and having fun, I got the checkered flag which leads to my second complaint for the weekend: The amateurs got cheated out of a good race. After braving the elements and waiting all day for a race, we should have been able to run more than the equivalent of a motocross moto. I finished in 8th out of 13 and my whole race only took 33 minutes.
Despite the short program and driving rain, it was fun and I’m looking forward to the next race in Jacksboro. It’s the same track that TCCRA ran this year on Father’s day, but in reverse. Can you say big rocky uphill and large grass-track area?
DA

Posted by: jeffd---------------------

Time for you to get the tools and the parts washing bin out! Oh yeah, go get plenty of fresh grease because you are going to need it.

I hope we have good weather for the next one. This rain truly sucks.

Glad you survived Dennis!

-jeffd

Posted by: darnjr---------------------

By the way, my bike was almost clean after riding through so much water before the finish. The only big clean-up will be inside my truck.
Dennis

Posted by: jeffd---------------------

regarding the way the race was run:

are you going to raise a stink?

-jeff

Posted by: taraker---------------------

:scream:

Posted by: darnjr---------------------

I'm not planning to make a big deal about it. There's nothing that can be done now and it was fun while it lasted. I think TORO and RRDR put on a good event and maybe the powers that be thought that most people would be happier with a really short program. And maybe most people were. Or maybe I'm just pissed because my Vortex gloves didn't come in and that's the real reason I only got 8th place.
Dennis

Posted by: taraker---------------------

I was racing the 99 Suburban at Stonebrier Mall parking lot. Man, talk about adrenaline rush, it’s like clearing the triples for the first time.

Posted by: yzguy15---------------------

Honestly, I'm sorry that you feel that way. I was hesitating to post this, but I feel that I must. If you had seen what went on behind the scenes (which you might have an opportunity to do considering that me and Chris Adams' wife video taped it) then you would know what a tough decision that was. They were truly doing what they thought was best for us. I think that if Bryan Storrie is saying something was hard for him to do, then I don't really wanna be doing that. Know what I'm sayin? Like you said, those creek crossings were outrageous, that being the reason that we didn't do them. I for one, had mucho fun. I thought it was great. If not for several technical difficulties (one of which being a fried clutch :silly: ) I would have put in a decent finish.

Anyways, if you would like to take any of this up with me personally, feel free to email me. I don't want this to get into anything major, and please don't take any offense to anything I said.

Oh, and hats off to Will, Chris, Mike, Mark, Brian, Pete, and the rest of the TORO staff. Great job. Also, the RRDR did a awesome job rerouting the course to make it safe for everybody. Thanks guys.

Posted by: MX400_Pilot---------------------

Sorry DA, but as a RRDR member who spent the entire weekend (Thursday on) out there in the cold rain so you could be cheated out of a race I couldn't be happier with the way it turned out FOR YOU.

Behind the scenes we (mostly Larry and Archie) spent weeks making sure the course was a good safe run, devoid of the inherent nastiness that can be found at RR. There was special attention paid to avoiding known problem spots IN CASE IT RAINED, and still maintain a challenging course for the A riders but still passable for the Ladies & Mini's - all of this greatly limits the way a course can be run.

As for RRDR participation on Race Day I'll take personal offense to the comments about not monitoring the track and helping riders in trouble spots. I'll bet you didn't see us cutting down trees with the chain saw to create a dam slowing the waterflow threatening to close the course - or the extensive shovel work done breaking other dams to allow the water to flow away saving the Ladies/Mini race from being aborted completely.

As for the 8 miles course there was 8.4 miles of intended course that NOBODY saw all of on Sunday. The Expert race was shortened significantly and even you acknowledge the difficult water crossings that they had to endure. There were several experts that buried bikes to the tank on the East side of the creek. We were there for what seemed like hours constantly rerouting people to be able to get them through that woods. All of the expert riders I spoke with seemed truly thankful for our constant efforts as they saw us there in different spots on each lap as the course constantly changed.

Lastly we had to deal with the C/Amateur riders as the water in the creek is rising so fast I was nearly drowned (no kidding) crossing the creek to re-route the course before your start. The original reroute would have taken you up the creek for more distance that I felt was a good idea but TORO made the best decision they thought they could at the time. No one WANTED to shorten your race or cheat you or anyone else out of anything. We did however want to give EVERYONE (including the riders even less skilled than you) to be able to complete the course without risking life and machine in the name of a race gone bad due to conditions that could not be helped.

At the start of the Amateur race Archie and I watched from the bank on the creek as the first riders headed up the creek. We knew it was going to be bad... Only 1 out of the first three made it clean. Second place ended his day in the creek and the third guy barely made it out. The next two riders crossed all the way over the creek and headed up the other side into the woods that we were trying to keep you guys out of because it was impassible - they were not seen again for hours. The next group of riders, baffled I assume by the raging torrent that they were facing head on, turned back to shore and came up behind us on the hillside and at least headed in the right general direction and by some freak turned back down into the creekbed and picked up the ribbon again and managed to complete the loop.

After a few seconds of hesitation we and several spectators decided that this was as good as anything and manually directed traffic for the remainder of your race, thereby depriving you of riding up the creek and drowning YOUR bike and ending YOUR race with a DNF!!!

I know the most of the TORO guys busted their ass and hustled to make things work out under bad conditions and I damn sure know for a fact that the RRDR volunteers that were there, many intending on racing the event rather than working it - me included, busted our asses instead to try and save the day.

Sorry I helped cheat you out of a good race. Feel free to blame it on me personally. I did it on purpose just for you.

DA = Stupid Donkey

Posted by: jeffd---------------------

Wow. I never intended my inquiry to start a heated debate!

I skipped this race because I had had enough mud "racing" at the Extremeland event. I am new to this sport and I am doing it for the love of riding and for fun. While the Extremeland race was memorable and challenging, the post race clean-up time and expense was more than I wanted to bear two races in a row.

My line of questioning was merely to determine just how nasty it was out there and what the folks that decided to race had to say about it.

I know that all the behind-the scenes stuff often gets taken for granted and I am quite certain that a lot of folks busted their rears seeing that this race went on anyway - despite the horrible conditions.

I guess my biggest question is this:
"What does it take to call a race off so it can be re-scheduled?" Does this ever happen? A lot of people worked very hard at trying to keep this weekend's event alive despite very low rider turnout and the relentless rain. It is ever enough to just pull the plug? I mean they shoot horses, don't they?

-jeffd

Posted by: MX221---------------------

After the parade lap I found that I had exactly no pad left on my rear brake pads and decided not to race. What did I do? I stayed around and finally helped spot the c race. I was the guy standing on the river bed flagging people to go up the hill to the scoring chute. I can tell you that most of the people there had a good time in spite of what you may be hearing on the site. It goes to show that you can't please everyone all the time.

Shane

Posted by: darnjr---------------------

MX400_Pilot,
You obviously did not understand my report or read the words very clearly. I was sharing my personal observations and made no direct criticisms of you, your organization, TORO, or RRDRs ability to promote a race. I thought you guys did an excellent job, as did TORO. The reason I felt cheated was because my whole race only lasted 33 minutes, which has nothing to do with you. This was after you guys did an excellent job of re-routing the track, based on MY race. As far as my comment about members not being where people were getting stuck, I was standing at a very deep crossing watching the experts drift downstream as they crossed while showing them the shallowest line. Across the river I could see several people getting stuck in a section that came out of the woods. It was very near the end of the race before any RRDR members arrived at that location to help. As far as the amateur race went and your comment about the guys going upstream into a really bad part, here are some comments that were posted on the TCCRA discussion forum:
”I had one complaint, with the track for the short course: they rerouted the whole track pretty much, when we went back into the creek bed, it was marked to go down the creek and thru it, I did this and got water over the bars, and probably seized my bike. I was unfortunately the 2nd guy thru this section, so after they saw that we had trouble they rerouted everyone else up on top of the creek bed, next time, I suggest the officials ride the track instead of just marking it in a hurry.”

And here is another:
“Yea it would have been nice to see some TORO workers out on the track to reroute us Ladies on our second lap, it cost me 1st place but that's racin (I guess).”

And here is a reply to the first:
“Well....You're almost right. They didn't make any attempt to keep people out of there until myself and 1 other bike (c-136 i think) came thru. We went across the water and into water filled ruts up to the gas tank. The track didn't seem to be marked or re-routed. There was no-one (official) there at that point to guide us around that part. After we did get OURSELVES out, I noticed there was someone there to show people to go the other way. #136 and myself had a nice lead on the pack up to that point, too. I'm glad that guy was with me or I'd still be there as it took the both of us to get our bikes out.”
Maybe you can go to the TCCRA discussion forum and personally insult them like you did to me.
I made it very clear in my post that I had a good time and I acknowledged that RRDR and TORO put on a good program.

Now you can apologize for insulting me.

Dennis Arnold
TORO C133
TCCRA X677

Posted by: darnjr---------------------

MX400_Pilot,
Here's another one:
"yea it made me mad when we finally got my bike pushed to the finish line with all the officials just standing there under the EZ-UP just watching me have the hardest time to push that heavy mud caked monster towards them. They should have been out there helping us find passable lines!"

Posted by: taraker---------------------

I think we may want to move this discussion over to the TCCRA forums. That way we can keep it this in the family, so to speak, & really made Cindy Gross mad for discussing TORO issues on the TCCRA web-site

Posted by: Pat Burroughs---------------------

Quote:

Originally posted by taraker
& really made Cindy Gross mad for discussing TORO issues on the TCCRA web-site

Trust me, I don't think she really gives a rat's arse.

Posted by: IBWFO---------------------

Some of you people make me laugh. If this doesn't apply to you then don't take offense. Most everyone that raced the TORRO race knows what Red River holds! It is tricky, muddy, slippery and there is quicksand that can truely swallow your bike! If you go to race, then you are out there taking chances and if your "Stupid" enough to ride into water that looks too deep then you create your own misfortune. I rode the entire track and although there were sever spots that were difficult, any decent rider could have made it. If it's too tough then maybe you should stick with the whooped out, dusty TCCRA races!
Regards

Posted by: will pattison---------------------

dennis-

as president and board chairman of the texas off-road racing organization, i read your comments with interest. my mission is to do whatever i can to ensure the greatest possible customer satisfaction at toro events. i can't do that by only paying attention to the good stuff, so even though negative statements sting a bit, i look at them as another way to find out how to do better.

when i think of what might be a good analogy for explaining to the uninitiated what it's like to run an organizational ballet like a motorsports event, about the best one i come up with is the battlefield...without the short haircuts and guns, of course. as a former marine i can tell you that one of the most challenging aspects of an operation is the fact that you constantly have people moving, possibly into danger, and you can't see or communicate with most of them. the situation is very dynamic and problems come up with unbelievable speed. sound familiar? it should, because the toro staff is faced with the same thing during a race. we have bought radios, and they help tremendously, but the bottom line is that 12 people can't watch every part of even a 2 mile coursel, much less 4 or 8. it's impossible even on a good day, and the conditions this weekend made it even worse. as the "commander", i have to use whatever bits and pieces of information are at my disposal to very quickly move thinly stretched resources to where ever our judgement tells us they are needed most. it's hard, and the pressure to keep the racers happy is immense. i won't claim that we make the best decisions every time, but i will unequivocly defend our intentions and our process.

when do we decide it's time to shoot the horse? when the staff consensus is that the situation has become unviable and the promoter is comfortable with a postpone. i imagine most racers figure the only factor to consider is the length or quality of their specific race, but that's just one of many. we actually cut the time on the c race to 30 minutes +1 lap, and one of the main considerations was allowing folks time to get out of the camping area. not every dirtbike racer shows up in a 4x4 with 33" monster mudders, so we have to allow for people possibly getting stuck. we also have safety considerations - the longer you are out there, the higher the probability somebody gets hurt in deteriorating conditions, and we only have 2 ems crews. another very important part of the decision that very few people understand is the promoter's exposure. putting on an event like this requires anywhere from $4000-10000 invested by the promoter before the gates even open. history shows that rescheduled races usually result in an unprofitable situation, and since the promoters are customers of toro, too, we have to take that into consideration. for a club like the red river dirt riders, it's not as much of a penalty, but for individual landowner/promoters, a bad race can be a very bad deal, and that's why we include them in the decision.

if it makes you feel any better, i stuck my own bike in hole during the a/b program, and i spent the next 15 minutes rerouting the course to keep it from happening to somebody else. i finished almost dead last, and i felt cheated, too, but not by my staff or by rrdr. i was out there in the rain with those guys all day, and they put in one hell of an effort. we finished the day with only one person pulled out with a tractor after dark, zero ambulance trips, and 269 - maybe 268 - riders happy they didn't stay home to watch football. personally, i was grateful for the adventure and i hope you at least had enough fun that you will try us again at jacksboro. i won't promise it will be dry, though...

regards,
will pattison
president, board chairman
the toughest off-road racing organization

Posted by: yzguy15---------------------

Quote:

Originally posted by darnjr
MX400_Pilot,
Here's another one:
"yea it made me mad when we finally got my bike pushed to the finish line with all the officials just standing there under the EZ-UP just watching me have the hardest time to push that heavy mud caked monster towards them. They should have been out there helping us find passable lines!"

Give me a frickin break. You think that all the TORO staff and volunteers get paid to do this? Like it's a job? All those guys had just finished racing too ya know. I'm sorry that there are only so many volunteers to "help find passable lines". Everyone just wants to enjoy other people's hard work. Why doesn't this guy help the guys in the race opposite him find passable lines. This really chaps my hide....

Posted by: darnjr---------------------

YZGuy,
Are you directing your comments toward me or the person who made this post on the TCCRA website? Don't jump my case for something I didn't say. The original post was made by one of the Lady racers.
My goal was to make MX400_Pilot aware of the fact that my very minor complaint, in light of the praise I gave this race, didn't come close to the flames that were showing up on TCCRA. Therefore, he had no business attacking me and calling me names.

Now Scot Shepherd owes me an apology.

Posted by: MX400_Pilot---------------------

Ok, after rereading our respective comments (all of them), I've decided that an apology is indeed in order.

While not conceding ANY of the points of my post, I do apologize for calling you a "Stupid Donkey".

And furthermore, if any other donkeys reading this thread were offended by my remarks, I sincerely apologize to them as well.

Regards,

Scot Shepherd
aka Mx400_Pilot

Posted by: yzguy15---------------------

No, Dennis, these comments were not meant towards you. They were meant toward the people that posted that. Sorry for any confusion.

Posted by: darnjr---------------------

Will,
Thank you for your clarification and openness regarding the race and the comments I made. I apologize if my comments appeared to make light of the efforts made by those involved. I know that a paramount effort goes into organization and execution of these races. Although I was bothered by the short amateur program, I never questioned the decision or the reasoning behind it. I knew you guys did it for valid reasons.
I applaud and appreciate the work done, and I’ll be looking forward to the race in Jacksboro…..rain, cold, or shine.
Dennis Arnold

Posted by: darnjr---------------------

MX400_Pilot,
Thank you. I look forward to ridin and racin with Ya'll in Jacksboro. And if those Vortex gloves come in I might even do well. My wife makes me sleep in the garage with the bike if I don't get in the top ten now.
Dennis

Posted by: jeffd---------------------

-jeffd

Posted by: jeffd---------------------

I am glad that all parties came to their senses and acted in a civilized manor. Again - if I stirred anything up I apologize. Next time I will take my questions straight to the powers that be at TORO (read: WP).

Will - thanks for the clarification on what all is entailed in herding cats, errr, organizing such an event.

I am looking forward to the next race for sure (and maybe, just a little tiny bit, perhaps, thinking I might have shown up for the race this last event :scream: ).

-jeffd

Posted by: MX400_Pilot---------------------

darnjr,

Glad we got passed this. If I make Jacksboro I'll be sure to look you up. I gotta see what these damned Vortex gloves are that make you ride faster. :P

I'm signed up for TORO in the sportsman and 30+ A classes. I've been prone to occasionally race pro though - so that someone gets my money back for doing well, I'll never see it again anyway...:confused:

Text Version Home

This is the text version of DirtRider.Net Click Here for the Full Version

TORO Race 3

This is the text version of DirtRider.Net
Click Here for the Full Version