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ASK ME YOUR SPRING QUESTIONS Please!!
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Posted by: Jeremy Wilkey---------------------

Hey Everyone I've got a question for you...

What things or issues intrest you most about springs. I have a spring and winding expert/ leading industry professional, that I would like to bring into our discusion group. So if you would be so kind as too ask some questions about anything spring related I'll get them ready for our guest, and bring him in ASAP...

Regards,
Jer

Posted by: Lutz---------------------

I'd like to know which type of spring is really better, hot wound or cold wound, and also who makes what type. I've heard that stock Honda XR400 springs are hot wound, and they are better than aftermarket cold wound springs; i.e. more durable. Is this all tue?
Thanks,
Lutz

Posted by: bscottr---------------------

Jeremy,
The following is from a recent post. Very few folks care for progressives, including me. However, since there are so many out there I thought it may be a topic to address. Marcus gave me some great feedback, just looking for more....

Thanks,
Scott

Quote:

Originally posted by bscottr
I know, I know, get rid of the progressive springs. I’m trying to convince my friends to do so. But until I do… I need some help.

Each time I help set their sag we get very strange numbers. The bikes are a ’00 KX125 (rear progressive) and a ’99 KX250 (now only the rear is progressive). Here’s the problem:

’00 KX125
Set sag for the intended 95-100mm race sag, but can only get 93mm max. Free sag remains in the 45-55mm range no matter what. His weight is 155 lbs. and it’s the stock 4.6 progressive rear spring. Recommended spring rate is 4.52.

’99 KX250
Set sag for the intended 95-100mm race sag. We get to 100mm just fine; however, the free sag is 50mm. If we dial in additional pre-load the numbers are 90-95 mm race and 30-40mm free sag. His weight is 130 lbs. and he changed the spring to a stock 4.6 progressive rear spring from a ’98 KX125. Recommended spring rate is 4.56.

Is this an inherent problem with progressive springs? When setting sag with progressives do you ignore the free sag setting and shoot for your race sag setting? Neither rider complains about stiffness now, although the rider with the KX250 did complain when he had the stock 4.8 installed.

Any help with the setups and understanding of progressive spring is appreciated.

Thanks,
Scott

Posted by: KawieKX125---------------------

How exactly did shortening the throttle return spring then stretching it out to a longer length make it have a lighter rate(ie easier throttle pull)?

Posted by: Lorin---------------------

Hey Jeremy, I'll take a stab, even though this probably isnt what you were asking for. Let me state first that this is merely the forwarding of a statement made by a local suspension tuner (although he has a long list of customers including Pastrana's bike last time I went to his shop). There was a concern over some of the shock springs that I purchased (locally also, I believe that you know who I refer to) that seemed to have problems with coil bind. This was brought up to me and I didnt participate, or refute the statement made by the individual as my knowledge on the subject was considerably less than the individual that I was speaking to. It seems odd that this could be the case concerning these springs that I understand are wound by the local spring company for Progressive, race tech, and so on. Any experience with this issue? Any ideas? I know that you have talked with the individual shop that I am reffering to while at Ponca last year. Is this just one persons opinion? I am not trying to pit anyone against anyone, which is why I have left names and businesses out of this thread.

Posted by: MikeT---------------------

Springs.

1996 YZ125 Ridden by a "C" class rider, 210 with all Equiptment on riding MX and mild AX style tracks. What spring rates should I use?? Front and Rear.

Posted by: podia---------------------

Hi Jer, here goes, the spring on a new bike will it sag
after some period of time riding it? (I think so)

So, will the spring rate still remain the same but the
spring length is shorten?

Or do we need to change the spring if the spring rate
is out of tolerance?

Thanks.:think

Posted by: svi---------------------

Springs compress and extend again in a sinusoidal fashion so what influence do springs have on damper velocity?
What is the recommended method for testing spring rate? (Some people recommend the Intercomp machine others say it makes a good door stop.)

Posted by: svi---------------------

Somebody once told me that f you fit torrington bearings between the spring ends and their seats it improves the springs performance as the ends move as the spring compresses and extends, is this true?

Posted by: MACE---------------------

Let's get some weight out of that helical boat anchor.

Any action on rifle drilling the stock prior to winding to eliminate the useless core material.

Are we anywhere near the fatigue limits of the material with current designs? If not how about increasing the coil pitch and reducing the wire diameter to give the same rate with less material.

Is the cost of Ti springs justified? I believe the reduction of raw Ti prices are substantial since the fall of the USSR.

Posted by: Darby581---------------------

What brand springs does mx tech use? Please don't tell me they are those piece of **** Springmaker springs, I would lose all respect for you guys.

Posted by: Jeremy Wilkey---------------------

Darby,
Dude you are gust here.. Your attitude sucks and if you keep it up I'll ask that you don't come back.. Anyway Why do you say that? PA been teling you stories.. Let me present an alternative veiw, maybe if they settled the accounts then they could sell the springs, rather than bad mouth SM beacuse they disagree over payment terms... Just a "guess" on my part.

Wow.. Anyway I have had the opertunity I know Kerry and Rob personally and can say that the more I have learned about springs the more appecaite their knowledge...Now that we have some cool stuff to talk about I'll have them over. Thanks for the questions..Personally I look the most forward to Mace's question the most..

Regards,
Jer

Posted by: JTT---------------------

Quote:

Originally posted by KawieKX125
How exactly did shortening the throttle return spring then stretching it out to a longer length make it have a lighter rate(ie easier throttle pull)?

It doesn't, it makes it "snappier". Although my understanding of springs is limited, anytime you make a spring shorter, you are effectively making it stiffer. The way it was described to me was that a spring is simply a torsion bar twisted up into a compact form. The shorter the bar, the stiffer it becomes (assuming all else remains consistant).

Posted by: Darby581---------------------

Jeremy,
Sorry dude about the attitude, I'll try and be a good boy.
Question One- YZ Kayaba Forks-If the fork springs break and take out the spring perch, spring guide, and cup, who do you think should be responsible for this? The spring company because the spring was the causal part? The suspension company because they installed the springs? Or the vendor that the springs were purchased through? How would your company handle this?
Question Two- Off subject for springs but while I have your attention maybe I can get a reply to this. If a shock is assembled and air is not bled properly, have you ever heard of the shock body breaking and the compression adjuster flying out. Who would be responsible for this? How would your company handle this?
Thank you, Have a nice day.

Posted by: Jeremy Wilkey---------------------

Darby581,
Its a matter of time.... Frankly motorcycles break, the parts around them break too, including riders, and in then its a function of probablity in any performance aplication.

How do I handle it generally, I'll replace the parts at my exspence, Its happened a few times and it makes for happy customers. However if the componets have not had rutine maintainence guess what darby... ITs not my problem... But I'll still find a workable sulotion for the consumer. I've never seen a spring break that did not shrink substantailly first, if the customer had sent the componets in for maintainnce at a resonable interval it never would have resulted in failrure..

Anyway I've only had 6 spring breaks in my life as a tunner, and I sell lots of springs.... normally if we've found one sacking we replace it before it breaks, customer here they got a new one and the manufacuter gets to replace my inventory.. End of story..

Anyway Sorry you deal with a bunch of Jags, If the compnay screwed up they should pay for it.. Easy enough... Thats what anyone with intergity will do, thats what I've always done..

Regards,
Jer

Posted by: Jeff Howe---------------------

Things we have taken fro granted in the past are things I've started paying lots of attention to, springs being one of them. I witnessed 2 spring breaks last season, both Honda CR 250, both aftermarket springs. One of them ended up costing me a bunch of money in absorbing resultant damage. I believe it was just material failure, like a bad run of material. There is no way to know this I guess.

One observation... KYB OEM springs are the bomb in my opinion. I have had zero problems with either fork or shock springs in terms of rate or fatigue. They cost more, but are worth every penny in my opinion. They rate out nearly dead on all the time, even 2-3 years old. I've seen little sacking on them, very little. A nice addition is the YZ shock springs are lighter too. One gripe... the fork springs need to be cleaned and polished up though, they seem to leave some crud in the forks, like carbon deposit. I just recently opened a set of 02 YZ 125 forks that had never been ridden, and I had to scrub the crap off the inside of the chrome tube. Like soot. So I have been cleaning these springs as best I can at time of service.

Springmaker springs have provided a good option over the years. They are not always perfect but have been cost effective for the customer. If your on a budget aftermarket springs have been the major choice, and Springmaker has seemed to deliver to the market for years now.

Posted by: yz_387---------------------

While we are on the subject of breaking springs, is there a sign that a spring is getting worn and should be replaced. Overall length? If so, what is the limit for KYB fork and shock springs?

Posted by: shockdoc---------------------

Jer
I have been using Kerry's springs for several years. If I ever have a problem with 1 of his springs him, Rob, Bill or Jeff are right on it. I'm like you and will do what ever it takes to make the customer happy. I hope the reply to Darby581 about dealing with "Jags" wasn't a jab to anyone here in Jax

I have learned a little about springs from them & look forward to their input here.

doc

Posted by: Lorin---------------------

My thanks to Shockdoc and Jeremy for addressing the spring issue. I was hesitant to cast any blame and for myself, I have experienced zero problems with my springs (both springmaker) and they checked out fine when Jeremy did my forks. I am assuming that maybe what this particular tuner was refering to was an exception. I have talked with the guys at springmaker in the past and was impressed by their enthusiasm at the time. I actually ended up spending the better part of an afternoon their talking with the owner about suspension,etc.. Just wanting to get some other, informed opinions from other people in the field.

Posted by: marcv125---------------------

A couple Q's

1st- im 5'9 145 and ride a 2000 yz125. Can i benifit from having my suspension "done". My suspension seemed fine for me last year but mayby i dont know what good suspension feels like?

2nd- Do springs need to be replaced over a certain period of time. Or just the parts around them such as the fork seals and stuff like that?

Thx in advance..

Posted by: MikeT---------------------

Whatever happened with this thread? I'ts been over a month since it was last touched. Where is the spring specialist Jeremy was talking about?? Did I miss it, if so what is his screen name? Seems like there are a lot of good questions here that still need to be answered.

Posted by: MikeT---------------------

Bump!

Posted by: Jeff Howe---------------------

I think Jer is very busy with WP right now. I've invited "industry experts" to share comments on the net...they never do. Now, what jerks my chain is that they could at least politely decline, if even in private. I can understand that and then could announce it.
So don't bet on it. In fact, you'll never see Paul Thede, Ross Maeda,Bones at PC or any of these other big companies on the net interacting publicly on a regular basis. Don't expect to see anybody from Springmaker here where some loopey, KIA engineer type can try and brow beat him and drag him through the mud. Comments might happen, but don't bet on participation.

Here's why... There is always somebody out there willing to try to make said "expert" stink. It is not impossible to do, lawyers do it everyday, considering it an art. So, then of course like any other normal human, the "expert" is going to get pissed and rightly so. But, in public view said expert cannot be a normal person as he is representing a public company, however the moron lawyer KIA type is still welcome to trash him away and try to make him stink...this is publicly acceptable. In the end some of these ventures are just a total loss and waste of time. People at professional level have learned it is best not to be a public view I guess...they just won't show up. I can totally understand and agree with them at times.

Posted by: FULLER---------------------

what wuld you sugjest for a 5'10 185lb woods rider, riding c/b in district 14

Posted by: Jeremy Wilkey---------------------

Jeff,
Well your right... But I think Kerry wanted to come here.. I've been so friking busy the last 6 weeks I've not had time to follow up.. I'll check into it.. As for the rate questions.. This string is no the place..

Regards,
Jer

Posted by: Shawn1---------------------

Hey FULLER, what's going on with the sazook. Weather stinks but still itching to ride someday soon. Really, the old girl needs a good ride now and then right. The kdx that is. Let's just go fart around this weekend. I took Patrick out Tuesday and we didn't ride much trail. Took a ride to the mx track (actually cleared some gap jumps)and then screwed around in staging for awhile. Just felt good to get out. Went to camp for the weekend and did some knee deep mud trails and logging roads. Dude, give me a call.

Posted by: Jeff Howe---------------------

Shawn1,

If you check your buddy's profile I bet you can get an email hookup or send a private message to him.

Posted by: mx_scottj---------------------

What would the heaviest spring you can buy for a 2002 cr 250? Because I am a very big fellow

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