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Rc

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Posted by: Shawn Mc---------------------

This is an arguable topic. Personally, I think RC will re-write all the record books if he stays healthy. And thats looking more and more possible simply because he doesnt falls as much as he used to. Baring a "David Bailey" type injury, he's got an unbelievable future.


Posted by: Senior KX Rider---------------------

IMO he is undoubtably THE fastest moto rider in the world


Posted by: BunduBasher---------------------

you seem to forget there is a 125 rider who has all the amateur records, and will probably in the future give RC a big run for his money


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Bundu hit it... IF Stewart grows-up and then gets moved to the 250's soon... RC's days may be numbered.

Let's also not forget Pastrana, I know a lot of people want to write him off... I think that's a mistake.


Posted by: mx547---------------------

i think the big mistake is so many believing that rc is just going to roll over dead when stewart gets to the 250's. he is still very young and i for one believe that he has yet to peak. let's say that rc wins the outdoors this year. which he will easily, barring major injury (a minor injury will not stop him-see 2002 sx season results), that's eight championships (i think, he's winning so much it's hard to keep track). with all the variables involved, just think about how difficult it is to win that many. regardless of how fast stewart is or becomes, eight championships will be quite the task to attain.

i will be really surprised if pastrana wins another championship. i like the kid, i just don't see it happening.


Posted by: Shawn Mc---------------------

Pastrana is fast, but I think he'd rather be in the boothe annoucing! The assertion that Stewart is stil growing is valid, so is RC. Those two are only 4 years apart I think. Think about this, RC and Stewart and ? on the Trophy De Nations team. Ya think maybe Kyle Lewis is the question mark? If so, what do you think about for a team?


Posted by: super rat---------------------

I think Bubba has all the skill in the world but RC has the desire to win. I'll give the nod to desire over skill any day. I have yet to see Bubba ride with the anger that RC does but I have only seen Bubba ride on TV. TP is done I said it after his 125 title, he will not win another title, I really like the kid but it's time to try somthing else.
There really is no question RC is the best in the world and maybe the best ever.


Posted by: crkid---------------------

Stewart is one of my favorite riders, but I think he should stay in the 125 class for a while. He needs to learn to keep it on two wheels first. That's the problem Pastrana has this year when he moved up. To be honest, I was never a real fan of Pastrana, but I would hate to see Stewart do the same thing after he moves up. It would be great seeing people like Reed, Stewart, MC, Larocco, Pastrana, RC, Ferry, Vuillemin, Lusk, and Roncada all on the gate for a main event.


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

And RC rode with "anger' his first season in the 250's? I recall him crashing his brains-out. I wouldn't declare that Stewart doesn't have the same drive, he did after all smoke all of RC's am. records, you can't do that without the desire to win. Give the guy a couple of seasons before passing judgement, there is really not enough to base an opinion on yet.


Posted by: nikki---------------------

Quote:
Those two are only 4 years apart I think.


Bubba is 16. RC is 22. 6 years. Thats a pretty big gap in the racing world... like a possible 12 championships worth of a big gap.

I think RC is absolutely untouchable right now. Hell, at this rate, RC will clinch the 250 MX title by round 10 or so and get to drop into the 125's for the last few races. Then we can see how RC stacks up to Bubba - but in the 125 class.


Posted by: crkid---------------------

The 125 class has already been the thing to see this season, but to throw RC in with it.......I would love to see that!


Posted by: Tommygun---------------------

I'll travel across the country to see that race!


Posted by: slo' mo---------------------

Quote:
Originally posted by nikki


Bubba is 16. RC is 22. 6 years. Thats a pretty big gap in the racing world... like a possible 12 championships worth of a big gap.


VERY good point Nikki. What would McGrath give to have 6 years of his youth back? Or Larocco? Six years can be a career for some riders...


Posted by: nikki---------------------

Quote:
Originally posted by Tommygun
I'll travel across the country to see that race!


Then plan on going to Steel City (Delmont, PA) over Labor Day Weekend :confused:

We went to Steel City last year and RC was simply blazing on the 125. And he said if he clinches early again, he's definately doing it again. I think with Bubba snatching up all of RC's amateur records - RC wants to do all he can to protect the rest of 'em :D


Posted by: MXbabe---------------------

Quote:
And RC rode with "anger' his first season in the 250's? I recall him crashing his brains-out


Did you get to see any nationals in 2000? If this season turns out like last year I will be at Steel City again, RC and Bubba head to head on 125's you couldn't keep me away. I just need to drive this year Delmont is one of the tracks I have not riden. RC was throwing the sickest whips last year, every lap in the second moto and not one made it to the TV race.


Posted by: super rat---------------------

^^^^ thats me :o


Posted by: Milquetoast---------------------

Put RC on the gate with JB Stewart in a SX or MX track ? I would easily drive halfway across the country to see that live! Bailey has been commenting all season about how close Bubba's lap times are to RC's. As for me, I'll root for Bubba any day!


Posted by: Stretch374---------------------

I really like the idea of RC dropping down to the 125 class. With Fonseca being a bit of a disapointment outdoors so far Honda needs RC to rap-up the 250 title and then try to put a CR125 on top of the podium. He's there only hope.

I have been rooting for someone to beat RC but now I hope he raps-up the 250 title and gets to the 125 class.


Posted by: patpipes---------------------

Quote:
Give the guy a couple of seasons before passing judgement, there is really not enough to base an opinion on yet.


Like RC has 8 championships to zero, so there is no comparison I still remember Eric Kehoe the next Bob Hannah LOL.


Posted by: ride_red_15---------------------

On a Pastrana note, i think he'll be winning a FMX championship, but nothing else


Posted by: n8MX---------------------

To throw in another variable... what if RC has swept every moto by the time he has won the championship, at whatever point that may be? Will he go for the whole season or still drop down to the 125 class? Or double-class? He is allowed to do that, right? But even he probably couldn't pull off 4 moto wins in a day...

If he does decide to drop down, will the CRF250 be available (to him) at that point? Wouldn't that be cool!

Labor Day weekend... I wouldn't have to worry about making it to school on Monday! I'll see if I can swing it... where in PA is Delmont, anyway??

Andy


Posted by: Mxrracer973---------------------

About him on a cr250f doubtful RC is custom to doing things the same all the time so therefore a switch to the four strokes you probabbly wouldnt see RC on one anytime soon , Him dropping to 125 we will have to wait and see..


Posted by: Senior KX Rider---------------------

Quote:
Originally posted by n8MX
Will he go for the whole season or still drop down to the 125 class? Or double-class? He is allowed to do that, right? But even he probably couldn't pull off 4 moto wins in a day...



Andy





You can ride double classes in SX but not in MX


Posted by: kiwi_925---------------------

greatest rider ever?? Are you talking about the greatest rider in the world?? Everts has that title, theres no more to it.


Posted by: patpipes---------------------

Everts????

I doubt he could get in the top 5 in America, I notice he never
ventures to these shores. Everts might get his chance to get
lapped in Sept if he shows!


Posted by: mkuder---------------------

RC rules and if your faster, he'll happily run into you and get away with it. My statement is based on past occurences and no doubt future.


Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------

patpipes -everts has gone to the us more times than rc has left the us(twice i beleive to do the mxdns)whats that say about everts and rc.Evert has raced and won in nearly every country on earth-rc cannot say that-until he can he will never be anything like a world champ.You see you have to go outside the US to be a world champion.


Posted by: kiwi_925---------------------

Would anyone give Everts a mx only deal, Supercross is purely america all the way, no other country has a series like it and we know but if they gave Everts a chance they would pay him back with a title. And Rc should have had his points taken away from him when he was pushing Roncada around, Rc just did what Ron did to him, why didnt he loss his points??


Posted by: 94ruck---------------------

I would only hope to see RC not get burnt out. Lets face it, he has banked several million dollars. He is blowing the reords out of the water, pretty soon motivation may be a problem. Bubba may be on par to beat RCs reords but RC will have them first. Once the bar is raised it may give Bubba more to shoot for.
Travis Pastrana...I have already written him off. He may be good for one more championship but I doubt it. Unless he works as hard as mike Brown or one of the other late blooomers but I just don't see his dedication to racing championships.


Posted by: 94ruck---------------------

Everts...remember 6 years ago or so when he literally called americans cowards. i do believe Windham beat him that day. I am sure he would fair well over here but ask Tortelli, Langston or even Albertyn, it is tough on this side of the world. greg finally got his outdoor title but it took longer than expected and a far cry from the 3 "world" titles he had when he came over here.


Posted by: slideways11---------------------

IMO RC right now is by far the fastest rider on the planet. Everts is not the world champion he is the European champ. Just as RC is the American champ. The last true world champion would have to be Roger DeCoster he laid waste to riders on both sides of the pond.


Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------

sideways does that mean bayle was a true world champion as he did the same.I think i am going to give up on this quest-Rc maybe faster but if you win a certified world series you win the title world champion-last time i looked the world series wasnt just european.Could we settle this by saying everts is a world champion minus america?


Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------

94ruck do you think greg would have had so many problems if he could have not rode SX?you see its comparing apples to oranges.


Posted by: slideways11---------------------

I forgot about JMB also Albee I would consider a world champion, they both won championships on both sides of the pond and beat the best riders in the world doing it . Everets, Smets and Pichon European champions sure, great riders absolutley but world champions no. RC would smoke them so bad it would not even be funny. Cheers


Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------

To let the world know(or is it america) i am now no longer going to try to fight this thing anymore-i have given up trying to get the message across


Posted by: 94ruck---------------------

I agree that Supercross tooks its toll on greg A and some of the other Euro riders. But in America, motocross follows supercross both literally and figuratively. Greg was a superfast outdoor rider who could ride hard the whole time but was not a finess type who could ride the SX tracks and it tooks it toll on him.
BTW, what about Donnie Schmidt...he won races in the US and Europe, would he be considered a true world champ. i think some pundits on this side of the lake consedered him part of the B team. Trampas parker definetely American B team, European champ??
Don't take this wrong, this is FRIENDLY bantering as I like a lively discussion.
BTW, Bayle...fast and smooth, maybe better the RC physically but his head wasn't in the game for the long run!


Posted by: KDX MAN---------------------

I'm with marcusgunby. There is no doubt rc is very fast. But it is one thing to be fast on home soil, competing overseas is a whole differant game. The European tracks are very different, not to mention having to leave everything behind and move to a completely different continent.


Posted by: mkuder---------------------

I know RC would kick the Euro's butt's just the same as he is over here. IMO the competition is there considering no one has run with him here.


Posted by: KDX MAN---------------------

Let’s put it this way; It’s the same as me declaring myself to be a heaps better rider than you are. I haven’t seen you ride, but I’ve seen me ride and I have no doubts you could leave me for dead.
But until you come all the way to Australia and beat me on the types of tracks that I love to ride and are best suited to my riding style, I’m gonna keep saying it.

It’s the same situation.


Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------

To all who think im off with the hump -i know its all in fun


Posted by: flyfishdoc---------------------

Bubba is faster than RC, once he gets the skill and moves up to the 250 class he will give RC competition he's never seen before, It'll be greath though... Charmichael racing Stewart will probably best resemble the better years of McGrath racing Charmichael... I cant wait!
AW


Posted by: kiwi_925---------------------

this is a bit like open wheel 'car' racing, is F1 the best and true open wheel world champion or is IRL or Cart driver that?? F1 DOES go all around the world.


Posted by: patpipes---------------------

I just remember that great Euporean champion Thorp on his open bike getting his butt kicked by a 125 ridden by the O'Show on a steep uphill course in europe. Face facts pals America is King Of Cross period!!!


Posted by: Milquetoast---------------------

If (or, more likely, WHEN) we see RC and Bubba on the same gate, I'll be rooting for Bubba. But I think I agree with something David Bailey said recently, RC has speed that he hasn't shown anybody yet.


Posted by: kiwi_925---------------------

Patpipes you can keep going back to those days if you like but isnt this post about RC and how he's(and team usa) are going to be dicked at the Mxdn.....


Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------

I still think we need to get the history books out to see who has the most MXDN wins- i looked on the net but couldnt get the answer-can anyone else find it?i remember that England did have the most wins in 1999.


Posted by: dirt bike dave---------------------

This links from MXA's site has all the winners. They are not totalled, but my quick count shows England with 16 MXdN titles to the USA's 14 and Belgium's 11.

http://www.motocrossactionmag.com/everychamp.asp


Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------

So i guess England is the all time winner and that should end any arguement over whos the best until someone beats 16.Normally i wouldnt trust MXA but if the facts prove me right they have gone up in my estimation


Posted by: bclapham---------------------

Patpies, please go out and buy an ATLAS. Do you remember GEOGRAPHY at school? There are several other countries on planet earth, and if you win races in most of them then you are considered as the "world champion". if you win most races within ONE country, then you are the "national champion" of that country.

Until RC or whoever, wins in different countries, with different weather, crowds, languages, foods and time zones then he will not be the world champion!

Albee, Bayle were world champs, but If you want some other american world champs then look at road race, colin edwards, john kozinski, kenny roberts jr. all great "world champions" that happened to get of their arse and prove it to the world!


Posted by: MXDad---------------------

Gotta disagree, Bruce. Does Tiger Woods have to win on the European tour to be the best golfer in the world/ever? How about hockey players, or baseball?

Seems to me that in MX in recent years, the premier talent competes in the US. I'm sure RC could do quite well in Europe, even with the travel, time zones, etc. I'm also sure we'd want to have his head examined for doing it too, since he'd make less money, get less press, lose sponsorship income, etc. etc.

Isn't there a reason Reed, Langston, Vuillemin, Roncada, etc etc race here?? Albertyn became a "big" star after he won his "national" championship. I guess I'm just another biased yank, but I just don't think there's an argument that in modern mx, the highest level of competition (with competitors from world wide) occurs here.


Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------

MX dad its all about the title 'world champion'-tiger i believe travels and competes abroard unlike RC.Most of our world champions do go to the US after they have won at the world series-this says they value the world title above all others, then they need a new challenge so they move on-RC needs a new challenge as no one at present seems to be able to best him.Opposite to what others think Bubba will not match RC for a while as he needs time to mature-his speed is in no doubt.I dont think RCs has any money worries so that shouldnt be a issue-world champions are not badly paid.No one is doubting RC could win a world title but you have to go out there and do it before proclaming you are a world champion.RC could say he is the fastest on the planet but then so could i-neither of us have the title so its just talk.


Posted by: MXDad---------------------

Marcus, but based upon your point, they're not "World Champions" either if they don't have US Supercross or MX titles, right? There are a scant few "world champions" who have come to the US and won titles, and none in recent history who have done it consistently. Throw the best riders in the world on a track and see who wins - isn't that the DesNations idea? Whose been winning recent DesNations championships? Do you really think that RC can be beaten by any rider in the world right now?


Posted by: bclapham---------------------

MXdad, i never said RC wasnt the best in the world, on the contrary, i expect come septmeber, that no one will get near him but that still wont make him world champion in my eyes.

The Tiger statement only adds to what i said. Yes Tiger mainly plays the USPGA tour, but has consistantly proved himself as the best in the world since he has won majors in other countries such as british opens and world matchplays etc. (i hope you havent traded that CRF for some clubs and a golf cart! )

You have to understand that it gets people wound up when they constantly hear americans claim they are the best in the world when they dont compete in other countries. Although i except that america could win the world bragging championship hands down, with out having to leave their own country! :D

more importantly though MXdad, i hope you can make it out for the DRN des Nations, although it might be tough for you though, since it will be a weekend in July, check it out in the so cal chapter!


Posted by: MXDad---------------------

LOL, Bruce! I hope I can make it out in July too. I haven't been to the new comp yet but am looking forward to it. You really have to figure out a way to ride more on weekdays!

But, back to the debate, so if RC is King of Bercy this year, will he qualify as a world champion? I'll concede that the title "world champion" may not be appropriate. However, I still believe that the title AMA Chevy/Trucks Outdoor National Champion or AMA/CCE Supercross Champion is tougher to win and a more prestigious title than "world champion."

Here's a question, if you polled all the MX/SX/GP riders in the world and asked them what championship they would most like to have, what would it be??

I still think any claim to a "world title" has more to do with competing with athletes from all over the world, than where geographically the competitions are held.


Posted by: kiwi_925---------------------

Do you not think that Reed Langston etc have been telling you what you've been wanting to here in respect to they wanted to come and race againist the best?? SX america has the best riders. But Bercy has a great show dont you think as a once a year event?? The Road racers from america i have great respect for as they have to go to europe and that and they get the cash there as well, unlike mx, thats why riders go or stay in america, i dont think Dorna would be giving over a $100 000USD to Pichon or Everts or Dobb for winning the titles last year, they take the money not give it out.


Posted by: mx547---------------------

Quote:
Originally posted by bclapham

Until RC or whoever, wins in different countries, with different weather, crowds, languages, foods and time zones


substitute "states" for "countries" and you have a very good description of america.


Posted by: bclapham---------------------

Quote:
But, back to the debate, so if RC is King of Bercy this year, will he qualify as a world champion? I'll concede that the title "world champion" may not be appropriate.


I do hope you are not comparing the British Open Golf to a French SX race Trial and Tribulation!

I think we should agree to disagree, you just have to understand when we hear all of this we are the best in the world stuff, but have never set foot out of our country that we all get very wound up, Ive got a lot of time for Edwards and Roberts and the like, since they have proved it.

Please understand also, that when an american goes to work in europe they get a much easier deal than when a european come over here. I have first hand experience of this, and i believe the foreigners here deserve more credit than they get...although the french dont do themselves many favours!

Comp is good fun, a lot of people complained but i loved it and it has firmed up a lot. The sand was good fun the first week, a good workout, i kept riding until i fell of and didnt have the energy left to pick the bike up!...i hope you make it, i spoke to bill P the other day but it sounds like he is MIA with the new house, i will let him know though.

MX547, maybe you should buy an atlas also, its a large planet you know!


Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------

I think if someone was to go around claiming to be a world champion without a FIM title to back it up, they could be justifiably called a liar.I dont seem to be able to ge the point across that the FIM host a series called the World Championships.It is santioned by the FIM which even the AMA have to defer to.You american national series is just and american title-nothing more.Just like our British championship has a title.Your riders are faster but until they PROVE IT it is all just bragging.RC could go over to a world GP not be use to the high speeds that are a fair bit faster than the nationals and have a big wipe out and never ride again-until he tries how can anyone say he could do it.It is an unknown.You and i know Rc can beat everyone on US soil but that is very different from GP tracks-most americans wouldnt know how different as you dont get much cahnce to see or visit a GP.We get to see the AMA series and GP series every monday night and it shows up the differences.It doesn matter what any of us think its the history books that prove whos won what and MXA has the list of world champions-like it or not.As for the MXDN i dont see how anyone can split it up into modern vs old as we have the most wins over the most years-nothing else matters.We could cut it off at the point where america started winning but that would be biased as would any other split.If the US had the most mxdn wins and england had less you would rightly claim to be the best of the best so why cant you just accept the facts.This may come across as written by someone in a mood but im just frustrated with the idea america has to be the best even when proven they are not.


Posted by: bclapham---------------------

Reinforcements are here!

Case senario: A few years ago, a kid called Neil Hodgson won the British Superbike championship. During that season he entered the round of the world superbikes at Donnington as a wild card and won, despite riding less competitive machinery he beat the 'best in the world'. did that mean he was fast, certainly, but not the best in the world.

But, Troy Bayliss (austrailian) also won a british superbike championship and then went on to win the world superbike championship to prove he is the best in the world on superbikes. He looks to be doing the same this year also. But more kudos to Troy, not content with being the best in superbikes he is now moving over to MotoGP next season to prove he is the best in the world on two wheels period by getting it on with Rossi and the like.....a true champ in my eyes.

Look at Lennox Lewis, no one gave him much repect until he beat Tyson, despite having several titles, you cant be considered the best until you have taken it to all commers, all over.


Posted by: MXDad---------------------

OK, I'm done, with one exception: I don't hear anyone saying "Americans" are the best. What I have tried to say, is I believe RC is the best in the world. You claim RC has to win in Europe, or the FIM World Championship, why wouldn't you also claim the "World Champion" would have to win the US series as well in order to claim a true world title?

I'm only saying that I believe that the best riders right now ( including many foreign riders of many non-American nationalities) and the highest level of competition is occurring here. You'll notice I've included Reed, Vuillemin, Albertyn, Langston in my posts. They're not Americans. I get bent when Europeans throw the "Americans are just braggarts" card. If the "World Champs" as you define them are so great, why can they not win over here?

Quote:
RC could go over to a world GP not be use to the high speeds that are a fair bit faster than the nationals and have a big wipe out and never ride again


Your kidding with this right?? Come over and watch RC go down Mt. Glen Helen 5th gear pinned, swapping the whole way down, then we'll talk about high speeds!

Oh well, good debate is fun, and at least we all love MX!


Posted by: kiwi_925---------------------

MXdad you have just pointed out one point of that track, Italy has a fast part on there track used for the GP's to, down a hill and then up the other side and jump into the corner. A person doesnt have to win in a lower rank series to prove anything either, they dont have to win in america just to say they are a 'true' world champ, it is because you think you have the best series so the best way to shut you up (to put it bluntly) is to win there, but then you jump on with them and say its the best series in the world because you have world champions racing there. The cash is in america thats why they are there, hell if i was racer like RC and could win and earn millions racing and from outside sponsers i would go to america, theres just more money there, poeple that say its not about the money arent telling the whole truth, yea some of it aint to do with the cash but hell would you take a factory ride that paid alot less or a 'privteer' ride that paid more??


Posted by: patpipes---------------------

Albee, Bayle were world champs, but If you want some other american world champs then look at road race, colin edwards, john kozinski, kenny roberts jr. all great "world champions" that happened to get of their arse and prove it to the world!
-------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------

Do da name Brad Lackey ring a bell??? At the time he was not the best American. Now go check your history books pal, we send our OTHG riders to
europe.


Posted by: patpipes---------------------

Hey bclapham check your MX history Pal!

World Champions from USA

Brad Lackey, Danny LaPorte, Bobby Moore, and Trampus Parker and I might have missed some since I don't follow euporean motocross at all.

NOTE: Not one of these riders was the best American at the time of their world championship win! The world championships is the minor league America is king of cross until dethroned!


Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------

MX dad you have almost proved my point exactly.I watched Glen Helen recently and was struck by how similar it was to a GP track.Now if RC was to ride that kind of track every weekend -the chances are higher he would have a big crash. It doesnt matter if a racer wins a race in every country on earth-to claim the world title you need to compete in the world championship-no other way will do.FIM World gp series is the only world championship recognised by anyone.You cannot go making your own predictions based on riders who ride in the countries of your choice.

The comments about second rate american winning world titles is valid but as some stage all series will have a lack a deep pool of talent.Also thos esame second rate riders may have only been second rate at american style tracks-not fast gp style tracks.This again proves my point that the tracks are different.

Onto world champions not bieng upto the your high standards-torteilli winning his first US sx race was fun to watch.Watching him come from last at glen helen to was it 3rd or something like that-setting lap times far far faster than anyone else.Reed wasnt even a world champion and came over and spanked everyone in his series-he made the others look like they were amatures.He rarely even broke a sweat.David V isnt a world champion and yet was leading the sx series against your best rider off all time IMO and may have won if it wearnt for a freak accident.
We have repect for Lorocco and RC etc -give the world champions the respect they have earnt.Greg won a national title so world champs cant be chumps.I could go on like this all day but i doubt i could convince you.


Posted by: patpipes---------------------

Hey Marcusgunby, First this thread started about RC being the best now lets analyze that. RC is the fastest Outdoor and Supercross rider in the world period. Tortelli is a great outdoor rider but not at supercross, Vuillemin is great at supercross but not outdoor. Greg was a great outdoor rider but not supercross. You mentioned David V. leading the series, only because Ricky had no points at one supercross but you see who kicked the crap out him the remaider of the year when he got healthy. RC can beat any of these guys on any track in any country.
RC is the only real deal around with the exception of Bubba!
Now you mentioned Reed spanking everyone, how about Bubba! Bubba is crapping all over Reed making him look like an amateur. IF RC rode in europe he would never crash because he could beat that cannon fodder riding practice speeds. Right now RC is just running a notch down looking around to see how far he is ahead. Only one moto this year has he had to go full bore for more than 5 laps and that was at Hangtown in the mud, he made those guys look like school boys that day. I bet you won't be posting any crap after the Des Nations this year LOL>


Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------

pat we will see


Posted by: nephron---------------------

Quote:
Reed wasnt even a world champion and came over and spanked everyone in his series-he made the others look like they were amatures.


Gotta agree with pat to some degree....the others WERE amateurs. Reed had little competition in the East. As I recall, his stiffest competition was a headcase (Jesseman). Brown fared well for SX, but is not suited for it. Langston was hurt or had frankly bad luck. But still, everyone was talking about how Reed was going to hand Bubba his ass. There was an Aussie on here that even said Reed would hand RC his. :silly: Right now, Reed's getting a riding lesson from Bubba. James said it best at Budd's Creek: "As the tracks get rougher, I get faster"--he takes stepups, braking bumps and corners like no one I've ever seen, and will eventually redefine riding style as we know it. My only hope is that he DOES go the MXDN on that 125 and beats RC and everyone else. Can't wait for the US Open, either. Now, what was this about? Europe? Where's that?


Posted by: XRpredator---------------------

When Everts, Smets, Pichon, Dobb, et al, come over and whup up on all the Americans, I'll eat a bowl of haggis, Marcus.

But, I don't think they have what it takes to beat RC, LaRocco, et al, in the US National series. (and I'm the farthest from being an RC fan as a guy can get. )


Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------

A little bit unfair to give up on reed so early-he hasnt rode any of the US outdoor tracks before and his starts have been poor making him work very hard.I was impressed at the 1st round when he came from a long way from behind and caught and passed langston-its funny but you never even heard of reed a year ago now he has a sx title and it doing real well for a non world champion.Bubba i have to say is insane fast but like RC he has it easier than the euros, Reed has come from australia to europe and raced the world series -nearly won then moves again to the states to start a new to him form of racing-he is still very young.Can you imagine at his age doing all that??


Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------

Xr i think mos tof the riders have already proved they can hang with the top US riders-everts got second overall on his last visit, dobb got 2nd in a sx series when he rode in the US,Smets got 5th overall when riding injured.Picon is riding unbeleivable at the minute and i truely beleive he could beat all but maybe RC.In fact i think he is one of the few riders i watch who could hang with rc.Now riders like Everts and Smets go over to america and race between world GPs risking injury and there world titles-it says alot about there motivation to do this.Its a shame US riders never seem to do the same.


Posted by: patpipes---------------------

A little bit unfair to give up on reed so early-he hasnt rode any of the US outdoor tracks before and his starts have been poor making him work very hard-------------------

Reed is an outstanding rider however he came along at the wrong time for him, with RC and Bubba around. What he is getting this year in outdoor will be intensified next year in the 250 class. You mentioned his bad starts, well at Hangtown Bubba was behind Reed in the 2nd moto mud race and went zipping by and won while Reed floundered. Now considering Reed had pro experience on those demanding european tracks while it was only Bubbas second pro race you would think the results would be different. RC and Bubba are the only two riders who can start a race at max speed without getting arm pump or fading in the end. You need to watch the difficult corners in races and check out their speed before comparing lesser riders to them. Pichon was never a factor here unless it was fighting lol.


Posted by: nephron---------------------

Quote:
dobb got 2nd in a sx series when he rode in the US


Best case scenario, lol. Dobb got his ass kicked the majority of the time here, and eventually gave up and left. Am I wrong? I'm not all that "in the know" about the history of this sport, but it seems that's what I read in RacerX. And between him and Pichon, as far as personality.... Criminy, I guess Everts must be a nice guy. You never hear much about him. I'd like to see him race.


Posted by: hapanese---------------------

Early in the thread it was stated Why doesn't RC go over to Europe and race? Why would he? Yes a few Euorpeans come over to the US because they want to race the best competition in the world. The few Americans that travel abraod to race are usually the racers that are washed up so to speak in the US. (ie they no longer have a factory ride, are'nt competative anymore, holding on to the sport that they love.)


Posted by: kiwi_925---------------------

Did RC go to Bercy last year?? It cant be all that easy for Reed to start off concrete starts, and why do they have those?? The motocross series doesnt look all that great on tv, here in NZ we get the world and usa motocross series and the world series tracks look SO much better it aint funy, they are marked out ALOT better it makes the outdoor series look like a hillbilly inbreed family is running it, with a few banners here and there, but look at the world champs and the banners line the track and the track is marked out clearly. Pichon is the fastest rider in Europe at the moment, IF him and the french fed. can get along should be good to see him go back to america and win with easy like he does at the GP's.


Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------

Kiwi i too think the nationals look unprofessional but i love the talent filled races-alot of it euro talent


Posted by: patpipes---------------------

Pichon has already been here and the only thing he could beat was a track official LOL. RC would lap him on a rough track. We might not have the tracks but we have the riders. America is still King Of Cross!


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Better get used to seeing images like this, RC, Bubba and whoever else gets picked will be in a similar shot for some time to come. Untouchable. :D


Posted by: super rat---------------------

That Pic gives me goose bumps. USA!!!USA!!!USA!!!! You can say what you want about the nationals but we have the best riders in the world. Racing on the best tracks every weekend, for 4 motos!!!! The GP's are a joke. Pichon cuold not cut it over here now he is "World Champ". Open your eyes people!!!


Posted by: mx547---------------------

Quote:
Originally posted by super rat
You can say what you want about the nationals but we have the best riders in the world.


yep, you can paint it with any brush you want but it would still be a step down for rc to race gp's. no offense intended, just reality.


Posted by: kiwi_925---------------------

You can not compare apples with oranges in relation to the way Pichon rode when in America, he has said so himself that he is riding better than EVER, his team is just that, HIS team, 1 rider, 1 focus, no one else to get in the way or team conflict, sad that Coppins left the team but look at him and Brier in some of the GP's coming close and hitting each other and they are team mates. Pichon doesnt have to put up with that so its one less worry. RC is too fast for others on his team so he has no problems as well, sort of a comparrsion(sp). Do you want me to post a pic of who won last year.....wasnt america.


Posted by: kiwi_925---------------------

Note that Ryno's sponser on his jersey, PAMO, is that an americain machine he was riding there?? :-)


Posted by: super rat---------------------

Of course Pichon feels like he is riding faster than ever he is winning every race, but he moved down a class. :silly: Do you realy belive that he would be winng evey race over here? We go to the MXdN's and play by your rules on your tracks and still kick butt. When your "World Champ's" come over here to race they get lapped. Get a tape of Southwick 01. I Don't even know who won the MXdN's last year or do I care, we didn't go. I'm not going to the MXdN's this year because the race sucks, one moto one class. I will just go to a round of the nationals and see all of the best riders in the world for 4 motos.


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

Quote:
Do you want me to post a pic of who won last year.....wasnt america.
Now there's a good arguement. :silly:

You're digging pretty deep don't you think?


Posted by: patpipes---------------------

Quote:
Do you want me to post a pic of who won last year.....wasnt america.

Well the USA was not there last year we had other problems to address.
But if you want some background on the winners try this on.
From 1981 thru 2000 USA 15 wins the rest of world 6.
Since we started in 1972 until currently we did not send teams in years
79-80-2001 Thats a total of 26 races we sent teams. USA won 15 of those races, so we can post 15 pictures as opposed to the worlds 11.
Now who is King of Cross????


Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------

super rat that comparison wasnt really fair as the 2 GP riders were only interested in battling each other not anyone else.

RC and Bubba are IMO faster than other riders but look whos the few riders to challenge them- ex world champions/gp riders-this proves that they are not second class riders-anyone who says they are is wrong.


Posted by: kiwi_925---------------------

Superrat how many cc's is allowed in a 2-stroke engine in the americain and GP 250 class?? you got it the SAME!! so your idea of dropping down a class is blowen out the window. Oki i aint old enough to go back to the days when america did have a good run of things plus i do recall that being the pic from 2000 des nations yea?? patpipes NY had things to address, if you break the states down it would be like europe, different state different country, i aint going into that whole thing, but it doesnt stack up to me when people say Bin is after me and then you find out its just a load of < ADMIN EDIT : DO NOT SWEAR ON THIS BOARD >- slim shady said Bin was after him. In 72 did u only find that there were other country's to race in?? Superrat they are going to a different country new tracks and the lot and you do you think has an advantage??


Posted by: super rat---------------------

Kiwi I meant it like the USA nationals is the A class and the 'World Champ" is the B class. I'm right back in the window


Marcus, you are a racer right? When have you ever lined up at the gate and only wanted to beat one of the guys on the line? If you are a racer you want to win, second is the first loser. Come on man,a "World Champ" who only wants to beat one guy on a 40 man gate, thats too funny "I don't care that RC is lapping me I only am trying to beat Bollye" Yea Right!!!!


Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------

I must admit i was dissapointed with that ride from biereir etc.Im not sure why they did so badly but i do know when tortelli raced against them he beat them but not like that, so they just didnt ride well for some reason-maybe they were both really nervous with the championship on the line and tightened up?one day doesnt prove they cant ride fast.


Posted by: kiwi_925---------------------

What ride was that murcus?? The only thing id say your right on super rat is that 2nd is first loser, but just have to wait and see on the 29th that Pichon is faster than RC. Murcus how do you think RC would have gone at Numar??


Posted by: kiwi_925---------------------

For all of you think that RC is better than Pichon and the other way around i just read a brillant article at www.motograndprix.com take the time out to read it, its worth while, like the guy said, RC's races in europe arent all that great compared to the results Pichon has got in america.......


Posted by: kiwi_925---------------------

Sorry the web addy is www.motocrossgrandprix.com


Posted by: MXbabe---------------------

Quote:
The only thing id say your right on super rat is that 2nd is first loser, but just have to wait and see on the 29th that Pichon is faster than RC


Hey thanks for saying I'm right about somthing. I wish I could tell you the same. Don't bag on us for no going to the MXdN's after 911 you were not here and you don't know how it affected everyone here, DROP IT!!! On a lighter note I will be surprised if the Pigeon and Everts even have the balls to show up to race the MXdN's


Posted by: super rat---------------------

Dam it!!!!! how many times will I do this before I start looking who it is that I'm posting for. ^^^^^^the post above is mine :o


Posted by: slideways11---------------------

Actually Florida is the A team Ricky, Bubba and Timmy! As for Pichon I think Tortelli, Vullimen and Roncada would bitch slap him on any track.


Posted by: Senior KX Rider---------------------

Quote:
Originally posted by kiwi_925
2nd is first loser, but just have to wait and see on the 29th that Pichon is faster than RC.



Can't believe I just read that. :confused: :confused: Pichon is a second string rider on a good day.


Posted by: MrLuckey---------------------

Ok - gotta ad my two cents now. Or is that $20 or $50 or.... Anybody that feels strongly enough about their opinion and wants to put money on the line AGAINST the USA or RC or JS just let me know!


Posted by: mx547---------------------

i'm in with ttrguy. i need some extra cash. any bets?


Posted by: patpipes---------------------

QUOTE:For all of you think that RC is better than Pichon and the other way around i just read a brillant article at www.motograndprix

The article mentions Reed and Langston being fast in Europe and USA but failed to mention that RC was putting 3 seconds a lap on Langston last year when he rode the 125 class! It mentions Chad Reed and how fast he is but fails to mention Bubba is eating his lunch. It fails to mention that all tracks are new to Bubba also and that he is the only true rookie at 16. The Des Nations is a team race so who knows what will happen, like in 2000 RC was domination the 2nd moto but Roger told him to cool it to assure a team win and letting Tortelli by him. A few riders are fast sometimes but RC is fast all the time, he breaks spirits. Look at Tortelli he is now a basket case in the outdoors. Look at Vuillemin in supercross RC busted him and he just rolled around for 2nd at the end. The article mentions the mud runs in Europe by RC, yes he once was weak in the mud but he killed them at Hangtown this year including Tortelli coming from the back of the pack. Now look at your European riders here Tortelli, Vuillemin, Langston, and Roncada all injured trying to match the hot pace here in the states. Since the money is in American motocross any rider who has a chance to win will be here racing in the A class. The others will cherry pick in the European B class, so for the next 10 yrs be prepared to deal with RC and Bubba domination as American remains KING OF CROSS!!!!!


Posted by: patpipes---------------------

Count me in for some of that easy money I am will to give odds of 7 to 5.


Posted by: MXDad---------------------

It's getting a little quiet from across the pond now that you guys are talking about putting money up!!

I'm in for any of that action too!


Posted by: kiwi_925---------------------

You forgot to mention your washed up old geezer 125 champion, that has been to europe, and didnt win in that b-class championship, oh but wait that old has-been went back to the a-grade championship and won that title....yet Langston wins the title that the old geezer was after and goes to his home country and try's to race him on tracks that he knows and loses. I have only seen tiny bits of that race at Hangtown, but im pretty sure in saying this, British mud is totally different to hangtown mud(where is hangtown??). The track was so bad some 500's didnt get up it, Rc was on a 125 then now on a 250 racing in mud, maybe he's a better 250 rider than a 125 rider??


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

kiwi_925... you really need to learn when to stop dude, your arguements are getting silly at this point.


Posted by: kiwi_925---------------------

But people have said that the americain series is a-grade, and euro b-grade, that aint the case, i just amde a point that brown didnt win a world championship, gave up/was allowed back in the 125 class, went there and raced won. Langston bet brown in europe, went to america raced brown and lost. What does that say about both sereis??


Posted by: patpipes---------------------

Hey kiwi dude on Brown and Langston, Brown was 125cc champion here and Langston was European champion. The point I was trying to get across to you is RC killed both of these riders after switching to a 125 for one race. Bubba is killing Langston and Chad Reed. Pichon is not the same class as RC and Bubba period. RC is without a doubt the best rider in the world now. I dont know what type mud you have in europe but if 500's cant make hills why would anyone expect a 125 to do it. I do know hangtown has an uphill double most euporeans would roll over, that is their weak point they cannot jump. With the exception of the French where supercross is popular most european riders suck at jumps. AMERICA IS KING OF CROSS


Posted by: kiwi_925---------------------

You have answered the reasons why the tracks are different in america to european tracks, supercross jumps arent meant to be on a motocross track. Do you really have no idea where New Zealand is?? Im neither european(apart from decent), nor am i american, i only follow european racing as thats where more kiwi's race. Bubba has yet to race Pichon so ther jury is out on that. If the Des Nations was in a country that neither rider had raced in i think you would see that the best rider in the world would show through, as we all know it would be Smets.


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

I think the back and forth has been covered?


Posted by: patpipes---------------------

Read you loud and clear okiewan over and out~!


Posted by: mx547---------------------

Quote:
Originally posted by bclapham



MX547, maybe you should buy an atlas also, its a large planet you know!


bought one.
fim gp's, madrid, spain to moscow, russia =2141 miles.
ama nationals, sacramento, california to new berlin, new york =2412 miles.

if there are any gp's outside of europe, i didn't find any listed.


Posted by: kiwi_925---------------------

cost too much to host one outside europe cos you have to pay for the promotors stuff to be trucked there, vip tents, tv and all the the stuff, yes it has been cover oki, and pichon is faster than RC


Posted by: bwalker---------------------

Quote:
pichon is faster than RC

What a joke. RC would spank that French worm.


Posted by: super rat---------------------

You need to lay off the Fosters, mate!!!!


Posted by: mx547---------------------

i wonder if pichon can run with ferry or larocco?


Posted by: patpipes---------------------

Well if he can't he is going to get beat by 30 seconds or more!


Posted by: TwinSpar---------------------

The bickering is getting tiring....

This has turned into an arguement that can never be proven from either side... and probably never will given the current state of world/USA competition venues and series.

With that said.... "My Dad could beat up your Dad!"


Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------

please close this thread as im bored of it.


Posted by: super rat---------------------

It really is a silly thread, 12 motos in a row!!!! What ever happend to the RC the best ever thread? Thats the only real question.


Posted by: Okiewan---------------------

I'd really like to leave this open until MXdn... but hey, they don't even send Pisshon do they?

From Racerhead:
Quote:
That Ricky Carmichael-versus-Mickael Pichon thing is still floating around out there. Let me clarify my position: I am not anti-Europe, anti-Pichon, anti-French or anti-GP, but I just happen to believe that Carmichael is better than Pichon. Actually, better, stronger, faster, more determined, more ambitious, harder-working.... You get the picture, even though MXGeoff does not. (I also think that Vuillemin and Tortelli are faster than Pichon, at least on these tracks in America.)

But I did ask someone who has recent experience against both Carmichael in America and Pichon in Europe — Ryan Hughes. "On a U.S. track, there’s no question that Carmichael would kill him every time. On a smooth European track, where there’s nothing to separate people like there is in America, Pichon could probably hang with him, but so could a lot of guys racing in America now." All of this Pichon-vs.-Carmichael talk started with a proposed story by a French magazine on who the best rider on the world is right now, U.S. champion Carmichael or FIM World Champion Pichon.


Just another perspective.



Sorry all... it's a waste of space. Closed.



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