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ashless vs low ash additives, tcwIII VS jaso/iso g

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Posted by: bwalker---------------------

Rich what are the drawbacks to using a ash free additive package in two stroke oil? I have came to understand that tcw-3 oils have ash free additive packages while JASO FC/ISO GD are low ash. This fact seems to make them less suitable for high output applications acoording to www.goa-northcoastoil.com/tips/2cycleol.html.

It seems to me that petrol engineers could design high quality ash free additives and get the best of both world. High temperature resistance and clean burning. After reading this article it makes glad I spent the extra money on an high quality two stroke pre mix oil.btw MX2T is JASO FC/ ISO GD which according to the article would make it a very high quality premix oil.

------------------
Ben Walker
00 CR 250
"If Harley built a helicopter would you fly in it?" Unknown sage

[This message has been edited by bwalker (edited 10-31-2000).]

[This message has been edited by bwalker (edited 10-31-2000).]


Posted by: MN KDXer---------------------

I just read the article in the link, and I "think" I understood what they were trying to say.

However, I could not exactly see their point; All I could glean was constant references to how TCW3 oils do not meet the requirements of an air cooled two stroke because the T3 oil is formulated for liquid cooled engine. They rambled on and on about how marine oils were not acceptable for air cooled engines, but do not state how T3 oils were for other applications of liquid cooled engines. That, and an explanation of the newer standards which may/may not be applicable to our favorite brand of oil, since those ratings have not yet been adopted universally.

Interestingly, they claim that their T3 oil is acceptable for most PWC use, BUT in their article, they state boldly that SeaDoo does NOT recommend the use of T3 oil in some particular models. (which is true, according to the local dealer.)

Also of note- I recognize that link's company's name as the very same company who sells its products at very discount pricing at a regional discount store, Mills Fleet Farm. Hmmmm... huh? http://dirtrider.net/ubb2/smile.gif

My conclusion- More questionable propaganda, created to generate unwarranted fears in an effort to herd customers towards their product.

------------------
-Vet A Enduro and Hare Scramble Rider.
-Dry tech talker and "known to toss stones"

[This message has been edited by MN KDXer (edited 10-31-2000).]


Posted by: popeye---------------------

Do to the cooling systems in a marine engine the exhaust is cooled so fast by the water they need to use oils to help pervent the bulid up of carbon. For some reason fishermen think they can ideal a two stroke at 600 rpms all day long and not hurt it. I'm no oil ecpert by no means but i have worked as a marine mechanic for 16 years, and the to biggest problem we have is carbon and corrision. until the EPA stepped in and changed the fuels now the manufactures have new oils out every year for marine engines. my advice would be stay away from marine grade oils for high reving two strokes with closed cooling systems.


Posted by: bwalker---------------------


Mn kdx, This paragraph of the article directly refers to tcw-3 use in our applicatio(high output watercooled)


"It must be noted that, although these water jacket systems may reduce engine cylinder temperatures under low operating conditions, they were specifically designed to control peak cylinder temperatures at these new higher output RPM's, and are usually found only in the highest output engines.In air-cooled two-cycle engines, cylinder temperatures average 300-350F. Normal exhaust port temperatures range from 1,200 to 1,600F. Some high output small engines have seen exhaust port temperatures measured as high as 2,000F. Ashless dispersant, typical of TC-W® type fluid formulas, are not thermally stable at these ring belt temperatures."

------------------
Ben Walker
00 CR 250
"If Harley built a helicopter would you fly in it?" Unknown sage


Posted by: cujet---------------------

I still would like to see some sort of test of 2 stroke oils. A real wear and carbon test.

I worked as a marine mechanic many years ago and I too believe that TCWIII oils are not the best protection. We built racing Mercury outboards with high compression, big carbs and heavily ported cylinders. We were able to increase output by well over 50% The down side is we had to run 16 to 1 oil to gas mixtures to get the engines to hold up. I suggested we use golden spectro but the suggestion was ignored.

I know this really does not apply to bikes but I felt and still do feel that a high quality oil will protect a racing engine better.

Yes if you putt around all day (like I sometimes do) on your 2 stroke bike, a TCW type oil msy prevent carbon buildup and fouling better than a serious racing oil. I believe only In this case might a light duty oil be better.

I use Redline racing oil and have very good all around results.

Chris

------------------
94 Husky 360 2 stroke, Street legal,(gotta clear my throat now)! Ported engine, FMF pipe, kehin PWK carb, full knobbies, comfy CR500 seat, Pro Action Showa suspension, Pro tapers, Fast! Raw power is all that matters and I need more.


Posted by: bwalker---------------------

I just got of the phone with Dave Redzous of Precision Automotive Research. He is a distributor for Phillips race fuel and Xamax oil.
I questioned him as to what the differences are between Phillips Injex and Xamax. Both are tcw-3 oils. Xamax is a high end racing oil that is used in cart racing and other high output applications. They both have the same base stocks. The additive package is what differs. It seems that the true judge of quality for oil is the composition of its additive package. Additives are also happen to be most expensive components. That being said the difference between the Injex and Xamax would be that one has a higher quality additive package.
From what I gathered from my conversation with both are high quality oils. The Xamax being better by virtue of its superior additive package.
IMHO the article is vague and misleading at best.


------------------
Ben Walker
00 CR 250
"If Harley built a helicopter would you fly in it?" Unknown sage


Posted by: Rich Rohrich---------------------

Late to the party again http://dirtrider.net/ubb2/smile.gif

For racing purposes ash has some value, and it's combustion chamber deposits shouldn't be an issue, but it's just a small part of the overall additive package. Worrying about, ash, bright stock, and the myriad of other additives is something I'll leave to the experts http://dirtrider.net/ubb2/smile.gif

I finally got to read the article, and I would have to agree it's more marketing speak than anything.

Here's my take on the whole thing. An oil has to be reasonably high quality to pass the TCW-3 certification tests, but as Ben pointed out the additive package will determine whether or not the oil is suitable for the application. The JASO FC and ISO GD standards are even harder to pass, and more likely to be relevant to our applications, but the additve package and the intended application is still the key. In my mind the problems start when people assume that the quality control used for the reference sample that gets submitted for certification is the control that makes it to production. While I'm sure that's the case with companys like Phillips Mobil, and the other big boys I wouldn't assume that holds true for the 79 cent wonder oil at Farm & Fleet. Phillips Xamax is an interesting example. It doesn't have JASO or ISO certs, but except for the visible smoke requirement I can't imagine it not passing. Does the lack of a JASO cert make it less acceptable a choice than Mobil 1 MX2T for racing? Based on what I've seen it isn't an issue. Xamax is technically a TCW-3 certified oil, but it's additive package makes it good enough to sustain life in 15,000 rpm kart applications. Injex is also a quality TCW-3 oil, but I wouldn't use it in a shifter kart, or my CR125. Mobil MX2T doesn't have a TCW-3 certification, but it's unclear why.

What I find interesting is the lack of any of these certifications in some of the high end racing oils like Shell ADVANCE Racing M, Maxima Formula K2 , and lots of others.

While the certs are nice to see if you are looking for a lower priced oil for a lower stress application, I wouldn't use them to make a buying decision in a racing application.




Posted by: MikeS---------------------

Rich,

I am getting off this subject a little. You seem to have tested MX2T a bit and mention it alot. As you know I am one of those Amsoil guys. I haven't found or they won't let me talk to anyone at Amsoil about tecnical issues.

With these oils and others, What should I be looking at in terms of wear,deposits & limits of lubrication ? Is there an answer you could post that is not overly involved?

I have been keeping track of wear and condition in 8 engines running Amsoil. They range from my chainsaw(just for fun),3 HS bikes, 2 Moto , 2 Trail/practice bikes and a few friends running this stuff. I can afford to push the practice bikes to the edge. Granted I don't have programable ignitions or the ability to change compression to extremes but I do enjoy the challenge and information gained.

Mike S


Posted by: MN KDXer---------------------

Rich,

Regarding the non-T3 classsification of some of the more expensive oils...

Some things I should point out about the TCW3 rating:

1) There is criteria regarding the minimum additive package to reduce carbon buildup which plagued marine engines w/ the TCW2 oil. Some oil manufacturers (at least according to snowmo mags) have reduced the additives to the minimum, while others have a nice mix of additives. ie- all TCW3 oils are NOT equal. btw, Injex seems to be the snow-magazine favored non-syn oil.

2) The TCW3 oils need to be compatible to mix with each other in an injector tank.

3) Some speciality oil producers may not have their high level oil rated as TCW3 because of lab costs, and/or they do not want to be labeled as "boat oil".

btw, Here's syn vs. dead-dynasaur oil story... A bud's brother works at Arctic Cat and had done some oil testing on the AC watercraft Ficht injected engines. Apparently, the Ficht system makes oil delivery difficult. His task was to test various oils for durability in this unusually sensitive engine. Without a doubt, he said the syns performed much better than the mineral oils. However, he did qualify by saying they were using CHEAP mineral oil, not the better names such as Injex, and that they were being horribly mean to the engines.

& btw... Afraid to put Injex in the CR125, eh? Well, there's this 13 yr old kid in MN who ran Injex in his RM125 all last summer with no troubles, and he is NOT slow; he advanced from C to A class enduro & HS in ONE season! Can't be all bad stuff. http://dirtrider.net/ubb2/smile.gif

------------------
-Vet A Enduro and Hare Scramble Rider.
-Dry tech talker and "known to toss stones"


Posted by: Rich Rohrich---------------------

Joe - I agree, the variance in TC-W3 oils is pretty significant, and the reason some of he high end racing oils aren't rated is because racers couldn't care less so the test costs can't be justified. Another problem is many of the high end oils wouldn't pass the JASO smoke requirement. http://dirtrider.net/ubb2/smile.gif

I don't think Injex is a bad oil, I just know there are better choices for a high strung MX engine. If someone wants a good quality low priced oil Injex is tough to beat. It certainly beats the hell out of using that cheap Penzoil junk http://dirtrider.net/ubb2/smile.gif


Posted by: popeye---------------------

whats remeber one thing with marine oils not only do they have to be compatible int the injector tank (which most aren't), they also have to be able to adhere to the rod and crank bearings after mixing with the gas. The new direct injection outboards( fytch, optimax, and hpdi) had a sauting problem when they first cam out since they injected the oil right onto the crank and didn't mix with the fuel anymore, i.e. causing rings to stick. Now the manufactures have out ashless oils to run in the direct injection outboards to element that problem but they do not recomend using them in premix or oil injection outboards.


Posted by: Rich Rohrich---------------------

I used the word "junk" because I really love flushing out the "but I get it for 79 cents a quart at Farm & Fleet" posts. Penzoil seems to be the oil of choice for "Team Frugal" http://dirtrider.net/ubb2/smile.gif

My limited experience with Penzoil in typical dirt bike applications has shown it to be a very dirty oil, it adversely effects octane, and it seems to provides less than adequate lubrication when run at high engine speeds. In a boat, or a bike that's trail ridden at lower speeds it may prove to be an adequate choice.

I'm glad to hear your experience has been postive, but I personally would never recommend it for MX or any serious dirt bike use.
Seems to me like an expensive way to save money. If it works for you, that's great.



Posted by: SUnruh---------------------

rich,
is the Pennzoil dirty because they use pennsilvania parifin based crude oil or what?
any ideas?
i had a car motor that had pennzoil used in it for 12 years before i got it. the insides were like a waxey oil mud. it was VERY nasty!


Posted by: Rich Rohrich---------------------

There are so many things that ultimately contribute to combustion chamber deposits , that I would be a fool to think I could identify one specific parameter as the root cause. Sorry Steve http://dirtrider.net/ubb2/smile.gif




Posted by: cujet---------------------

If I remember correctly, TCWIII oils must have and or meet certain viscosity requirements. This may be for pumpability in oil injection pumps and may have nothing to do with proper viscosity for engine protection. Racing oils often tend to be of much higher viscosity. In fact some TCWIII oils were produced from high viscosity oil and thinned to the proper viscosity, therby reducing the amount of actual oil in the mix!

As has been mentioned before, SeaDoo prohibits the use of any type of TCW oil in their rotax engines. From what I understand, they had wear problems with many TCW oils. The best way for SaeDoo to insure satisfactory engine life was to require the use of known good oil. They listed "racing" 2 stroke oil as an alternate to the stuff they sell.

Chris

------------------
94 Husky 360 2 stroke, Street legal,(gotta clear my throat now)! Ported engine, FMF pipe, kehin PWK carb, full knobbies, comfy CR500 seat, Pro Action Showa suspension, Pro tapers, Fast! Raw power is all that matters and I need more.


Posted by: MN KDXer---------------------

WWRacer,
From what I have heard from snowmobile racers a few years ago, the ordinary blue Polaris TCW3 is actually some pretty dirty burning stuff. At that time, the preferred Pol oil was the "premium" stuff, and now the $30 a gallon VES.

Speaking of Polaris, it was their oil & prices which made an oil rebel of me. Back in the early 90's, I bought a new snowmobile and "believed" all their high quality oil BS. Well, after my 500 Trail developed stuck piston rings, I realized there was nothing special about their oil, save for the extra $$. Since that time, numerous snowmo buds have made the switch from OEM oils with absolutely no trouble.

My new sled, w/ the exhaust valves, alledgedly requires the Polar VES oil, however, I'm going with the Injex. I will know next spring if the sled REALLY requires VES. I'm betting it does not, and this is another Polaris scare tactic. http://dirtrider.net/ubb2/smile.gif

------------------
-Vet A Enduro and Hare Scramble Rider.
-Dry tech talker and "known to toss stones"


Posted by: Rich Rohrich---------------------

Quote:
Originally posted by WorldWideRacer:
Rich,
Are the JASO rated oils generally much better than TCW3? Also, what is your opinion of the Polaris TCW3 oil?


The JASO test is tougher to pass and in my opinion is more relevant for high speed dirt bike use. I've never dealt with the Polaris oil, or seen the results of anyone who has. While poking around at the local dealer I have noticed that the high end Polaris oil isn't TC-W3, it's a JASO FC rated synthetic. Food for thought possibly?




Posted by: bwalker---------------------

MN KDXR, I have ran Injex in Polaris VES model. The sled was 98 XCR 440 with the first generation VES system. I did run into some carbon sticking problems. I attribute this however to the poor jetting and poor design of that models valves. The only reservations I would have about running Injex in my sled would have to do with its additive package being up to the job in a highly loaded motor such as a snowmobile. I guess it comes down to me feeling more comfortable using oil designed for more severe applications. The price difference between oils is of no consequence to me compared to a motor. That being said I think that tcw-3 is adequate for most sleds, just not mine. I think I stress my sleds more than most people because I hammer on my sleds by using them for hill climbing, deep powder riding and lake racing. Just my .o2$

------------------
Ben Walker
00 CR 250
"If Harley built a helicopter would you fly in it?" Unknown sage


Posted by: Nevada Sixx---------------------

I use pennzoil tcw3 in my yz125.
been on the same piston a year and a half, no signs of wear,, and four months ago, i replaced the ring, just to be replacing it.
I don't scream my bike cause im too slow to do corners. when i switched to klotz, i started getting spooge and it won't crank as well as when i use tcw3.

But one day, i did put tcw3 in a cup, and gold spectro in a cup. then, i dip my finger in each one. I could tell right off that the gold spectro was more slippery and stayed on my fingers longer.
I still like my tcw3. It says right on back of the bottle that you can use it in motorcycles. After a year of using tcw3, the saving i have would more than pay for a new piston and rings. It would be cool if a pro would try it, and see what happens when a bike is really screamed over a long period using tcw3. I think low ash means extra lubrication, but with more smoke than No-ash.


Posted by: MN KDXer---------------------

B Walker,

That's interesting that you had some carbon stickage problems with the XCR & Injex. I've read in snowmo mags that the Polaris design is more prone to carbon build-up than the other brands. One of the most knowledgeable snow mags IMO, Snow Tech, recommends Injex for normal sleds, and Torco for e-valved engines.

There are so many guys running Injex up here in their sleds, that I don't doubt the oil's ability, but I am a bit leery about whether I'll have exhaust valve stickage. (00 XC500SP, btw) I was thinking that the system looks rather easy to R & R, so I'm not gambling a lot of time. The machine is still on warranty, AND Phillips 66 claims they will pay for repair costs due to oil failure. Otherwise, even at $30 a gallon, a case of oil is still cheaper than a couple of scored cylinders.

Hopefully, my kid can get an oil sponsorship for next season, so I can get the good stuff for low price; the best of both worlds. http://dirtrider.net/ubb2/smile.gif

Nevada 6,
"Ashless" means that if you put the oil in a pan and cook it until it's burned completely, there will be no ashes remaining. I guess I don't know why ash would be a good thing.

------------------
-Vet A Enduro and Hare Scramble Rider.
-Dry tech talker and "known to toss stones"


Posted by: bwalker---------------------

Mn KDX, The valves on a sled are 100 times esier to service than on a bike. You should not have a problem if you inspect them on a regular basis and clean as needed. btw When they stick on a Polaris the sled runs like poo-poo.
I think the test for ash involves the oil being added to a acid solution and the remnants being cooked down as you described.

Nevada6, I dont think the relationship between ash and smoke is that clear cut. Jaso FC and ISO EG oils must be low smoke but do not have to be ashless. Mx2t is a good example of this, Jaso fc and low ash according to the label.

------------------
Ben Walker
00 CR 250
"If Harley built a helicopter would you fly in it?" Unknown sage


Posted by: NO HAND---------------------

Is the Prolab synthetic oil good?
It is ashless and isn't certified anything. The one I got is made for snowmobiles and I mix 32 to 1. Will I blow up anything?

------------------
Sand Del Lee MX Park Rules!!
00 CR125
91 CR250


Posted by: Nevada Sixx---------------------

there are some good reading about tcw3 at www.goa-northcoastoil.com

It would be nice if two pros, on two new bikes, one bike with tcw3, and one with yamahalube,,, would race, and then look in engine to see which bike is in the best shape.


Posted by: Rich Rohrich---------------------

This is a good thread and is worth bringing back up to the top.


Posted by: awilson40---------------------

My son and I both run Havoline tcw3 oil in our KX125's. I dont run mine as hard, and have had no problems. He runs the crap out of his and races. We just did a top end on his and the ring was so worn that the gap was .125 in and the bike wouldnt run. But, the cyl and piston showed little wear and were to specs and there was no carbon buildup on the piston or head and just a little buildup on the powervalves.


Posted by: yardpro---------------------

awilson40

met your son at blackjack this weekend, nice boy. His bike sounded pretty good, hope to see you out there soon, I'm sure you're not as slow as he says

Back to the subject;
I ran klotz in my bike and had horrible p/valve gooey stickey nasty yuckey problems. Also the smell gives me a headache. I now use the honda either the synthetic or the non ( depends on how fat the wallet is). I always try to use the best products. MX is an expensive sport (had to give up golf, figure i'll get back into that when i'm old and feeble), and if a few extra bucks per month make or break your riding, what happens when a crank goes bad??? I have a friend who runs the cheapest oil he can find. In 2 years he has gone through two cylinders, 4 sets of rings, and a crank in his 89yz, and a crank, piston,&cylinderin his sons yz80 (he's selling it now), and if that weren't enough he just bought his kid an immaculate '00 rm125, and after ~6months his crank went out, trashing the top end too. His new toy is a '00 yz426 and he runs warren (recycled oil) oil in it. it even looks filthy out of the bottle.
He can't figure out why he is having all these problens and still insists that because the top of the piston is clean that the oil is good and is not a contributing factor. duh? Everyone else we ride with uses quality oils and have very few problems. If we run out of fuel at the track we watch instead of using his (he always offers). Oh whell some people never learn.


Posted by: cujet---------------------

I found this test on 2 stroke oils used in air cooled ultralight aircraft engines. I found it interesting.http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/oiltest.htm

Chris


Posted by: bwalker---------------------

All four of the oils tested either had excessive carbon buildup on the head and or piston ring area.The test also was run at a pretty low RPM with a low performance rotax engine. I suspect the results would be less favorable if the test was done on a 125cc mx bike screaming at 10,000 rpm or more.


Posted by: MN KDXer---------------------

BWalker-
I did decide to run the Injex in the XC5SP last winter. It was a pretty easy decision after I found out that this particular sled is calibrated to chew down about a qt oil every 100 miles. At $30 a gal for VES, I could almost afford to melt down. I put on about 2000 miles, and cleaned the valves twice. (did not stick prior to cleaning). From what I gather from snowmo BB's, this is about par with most other oils. BTW, those snowmo PV's are so easy to R&R, I don't understand what the fuss is about.
And, of course, Injex in the bikes this summer.


Posted by: bwalker---------------------

Quote:
BTW, those snowmo PV's are so easy to R&R, I don't understand what the fuss is about.

You got that right. On my xcr two bolts was all that held the valve assembly. I did have problems with the valves sticking on this sled with injex. I have heard that Polaris changed the design slightly to alleveate the problems I expierenced.



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