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A Q for the bladder experts
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Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------
Now after reading a previous thread on the bladder and sub tanks, ive decided if the bladder trades high speed bump absorbtion for bottoming control, i want to try it without the bladder active.My riding is mainly on natural rough tracks that dont have sx style jumps so bottoming isnt a big issue.
Now i was thinking of moving the restrictive barrier(washer)any suggestions?
Also what knind of air gap should i run?
Posted by: shaggy829---------------------
marcus
if you run both systems at the same time the fork would be to soft . because after a landing if there is any g load on the bike the fork will just fall through the travel . i think it could work for nasty enduro conditions though. i am soon to install the subs on my cr. at first i am going to just put them on and see what happens ,but i am certain i will end up with the bladder and restrictor barrier out altogether and run 75mm oil
shaggy
Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------
sorry shaggy you have lost me?do you mean if i dont run both systems?if i remove the bladder, i have a bottoming cone type fork that will still stop bottoming by normal methods?ie air gap and the bottoming cones.Could you report back to us on the sub tanks performance as im thinking of buying some but dont want to spend alot of money if the performance isnt woth it.
Posted by: Jeff Howe---------------------
Marcus, I know some places pull the bladders right out. I have not done this yet but have been tempted to try it. My biggest problem is that I don't have a bladder equipped bike, so I would have to do it with somebody else's and have just not bothered asking anyone.
Pull em' out, set your oil level to 90mm. I think Shaggy is talking about his 75mm oil level with Sub Tanks installed. If you don't run sub tanks I don't think you want your oil level quite that high. Go ahead and do it and let me know what you think.
Posted by: shaggy829---------------------
marcus
both systems are speed sensistive . the faster the shaft speed the more
recistance and vice versa so if we run both systems then as soon as the shaft speed is in the low area the fork would feel like it had a massive air space.
when the bladder compresses the air spring is softened and when the sub tank volume is filled up the air spring is softened. for them to be used together you would have to run a very small primary air space
ie high oil level. i am thinking around 50mm ???
shaggy
Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------
Thanks for clarifying that shaggy-i understand you now-at 1st im thinking of just disabling the bladder-not worrying about the enzo sub tanks for now.So if i remove the washer will it disable the bladder completely?It doesnt look easy to remove the bladder although i havnt really tried?
Posted by: shaggy829---------------------
marcus
you will have to remove the bladder also it is held in place by springs.
with every thing removed you will be able to lower the oil hieght
to around 90-100.
shaggy
Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------
Thanks shaggy-has any other gurus actually removed the bladder?shockdoc, mark hammond,etc??i would like to hear real world experiences.
Posted by: Wakisashi---------------------
I have heard that two of the PA tuners near my local remove them , but I don`t know that for fact.
Posted by: steve125---------------------
Would someone refresh my memory on the theory of what the bladder is supposed to do?........Thanks 
Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------
Right for something so simple i never truely understood how it worked.After removing it i think i have got more insight.The bottom bladder part is just a small compressable air tank.The washer that sits under the spring(restrictive barrier) makes this system a closed loop unless pressure gets high enough to push past the washer.So the fork goes into stroke-the bladder compresses making it supple-the oil cant get past the washer so its a little air spring system.Under larger hits the oil will push past the washer as so disabling the bladder (which will be collaspsed anyway)then the normal top airspring will come into play.Its a bit like a enzo cannister system buried inside the bottom part of the fork.
Its a bit like having a dual air spring-onother approach is the showa twin chamber that isolates the damper oil and airspring.I prefer the TC system as the baldder seems a bit crude.
Thinking about it i beleive the restrictive barrier has more effect than the bladder itself and if i was doing it again i would leave the baldder in place and remove the washer only.
The forks do feel more supple by hand-we will see if it bottoms this weekend.
Its surprising these forks work at all-they have no midvalve lift-a very stiff base valve-a bleed shim stack over the escape holes after the needle in the base valve-then after the oil has got past all these things its pushed into a chamber with no exit other than a going past the washer that sits under the spring(that must be under a lot of pressure when bottomed)its almost like having another bleed stack.
Posted by: shaggy829---------------------
marcus
there are 4 articles that tell how the bladder and sub systems work
in the articles section at mx-tech .com
shaggy
Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------
Thanks shaggy-i had read those previously but until i look at something in my hand it doesnt always make sence.
Posted by: Jeremy Wilkey---------------------
I think you guys know this but.. If you remove the RB, and actually leave the bladder in place then the fork is softer than a fork without a bladder.. It could be a cool offroad set-up... Running a high oil ht for resoponsive action due to pressure rise, yet also not paying thr price later..
Marcus,
The passive stack has some good uses.. We've been testing them with a fixed bleed that simulates a 4-5 out setting.. So you get some intial complaiance, yet don't lose the advanateg of say running the clicker softer and getting more g-laod restaince. I think the passive shims work best on bigger bikes where the throtle is rolled off..
As for the bladder the easiest thing to do would run a V.O. Rs... I was allways gonna make one..
BR,
Jer
Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------
Well i removed the bladder completely and also the restrictive barrier-i set the airgap at 100mm.Now the set up i was running before was a bit stiff-i was full soft on the comp, with the new set up i am dead centre on the comp clicker and it rode really good.No real bottoming to speak of, and the track had a few hard slap down landings.I noticed the most difference on large breaking bumps-before the handle bars would sometimes jerk one way or the other-now it stays much straighter.It felt nice and plush.The one thing to add was the track this weekend was softer dirt which always helps suspension feel compared to a real hard track.Even so i feel the bladder removal was a very good step in fork performance-if i was on sx type tracks i would think twice but then im no sx rider.
Posted by: Jeff Howe---------------------
Thanks Marcus....for taking the time to do this test and report on it.
Posted by: Vic---------------------
Quote:
Originally posted by Shocknut
Thanks Marcus....for taking the time to do this test and report on it.
|
Ditto, that. Your insights are always appreciated.
Posted by: DEANSFASTWAY---------------------
Yeah weve been removing the bladders on some woodsies bikes we beleive this makes them much motre plush. We need it here because a lot of the off road events are infested with small tree roots and we felt this would help absorb them . At first we tried drilling the spring plate lower seperator in an effort to get plushness and easier to bleed the forks. I heard of guys tossing oput the springplate/seperator but they are headed for trouble because the spring could unwind and or cause wear and maybe pinch at the top ofthe cartridge(danger Will Robinson danger) .We used a little higher oil level @90mms and thought that worked fine. This area has many diverse types of riding areas You could drive @100 miles distance and go from sand to loam to grass to rocks. I would only recommend doing this for use in like the woods or for hardpack where there are lots of studder bumps and small braking bumps . I am no expert on this but I have done it to a few bikes . Actually Im still trying to figure out how to keep the MARZO 45s from blowing out seals. (even with the bleeders and forkboots) maybe JEREMY has a trick.
Posted by: marcusgunby---------------------
dean ive heard hard anodising is the only real cure for the zokes.
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