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Type 3 or was it Group 3 oils

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Posted by: clw---------------------

While chewing the fat last Sunday I was extolling the virtues of MX2T, and one of the riders, a smart one at that, said it was "only " a type 3 oil. And implied that there are better oils for 2 stroke lubrication. He's a four stroker so I couldn't ask what he uses!

I haven't found anything better and I've used a bunch; from Yamalube 2R, Redline, Motul, all the Belrays, etc., etc.

So what's a type 3?


Posted by: bwalker---------------------

Group three refers to the base stock. Group 3 base oils start life as regular crude, but are hydrotreated, and hydroisomerized to the point that they are nearly as saturated. an have nearly as high VI's as a pao or ester synthetic. In fact Petro Canada duron (G3) equaled or beat Mobil Delvac in all catagories(ester/pao blend) in a recent sae paper. As far as your buddies comment on some oils being better for a two stroke. I would say maybe. IF YOU are at full throttle for long periods of time, in high load situations, with a small bore bike a ester based oil like motul 800 or maxima k2 my be slightly better. If you are not stressing your motor as much MX2T works great. It is very clean burning and very easy to tune. Add to that the fact that it is underpriced IMO for its quality and you have a winner. BTW has anyone verfied that MX2T is indeed a group three? I have seen conflicting info on what exactly it is.


Posted by: bwalker---------------------

OK, I just got the word from the horses mouth on mX2T's base stock. It is in fact agroup4 or PAO based oil. Source was George Morrison, STLE CLS AV Lubricants Inc.


Posted by: clw---------------------

Excuse my ignorance, but, is that (being a group 4/POA) a good thing?

Aren't ester based oils problematic? Short shelf life, attract water, some corrosion problems with fuel system components, etc.?

Don't all synthetic oils have to start with a natural base stock, either petro or vegetable, right? When the term ester based is used that means from vegetable stock?


Posted by: bwalker---------------------

Pao stands for poly alpha olefin. Its a synthetoc molecule that is quit differant than a ester.


Posted by: cujet---------------------

Glad to hear someone could find info about MX2t. I have been using it in my Husky and a few other engines with good results. It seems to be fairly smoke free and leaves little (really, none at all) spooge. I have been considering using it in my RZ350 autolube system. It seems thin enough to pump well here in Florida.

Have others here had favorable results after teardown?

Chris


Posted by: ochster---------------------

Yes, it has become my standard reccomendation to my clients. Combination of cost, availability, performance, has in my book made it worthy. Not to mention the conversations it usually strikes up..you know when the reeaallyy good tuners/mechanics (that are paying you), tell you what they think of it.


Posted by: sunrise---------------------

bwalker
What may be the oil ratios, for the diferent size 2 cycle motor class, that you would recommend if it was your equipment. Starting with low compression and then high compression. I know hard use has a factor of motor life. please add the Easey and Hard Usage as Major class mix charts. this is not a test, Im interested in your thoughts and to see it simular.
Is their any graphing or standards that can show the different QUALITIES of each oil. maybe an site or sales lit on this subject. Im sure that many others would love tohear from you thoughts and view this interesting data.
I have used redline race oil to date with great performance. but will most likely change to MT2X after the usage of my stock is gone.
This read was very interesting.


Posted by: bwalker---------------------

Sunrise, I run all my two cycle motors at 32:1. This includes a Toro snowblower, lawnboy mower, stihl saws and weed whips, cr 500 af, and rz 350 street bike. MX2t will not spooge or burn dirty at any sane ratio provided you are jetted right. I have ran a ktm 200(notorious spooge factory) at 32:1 with very good rersults IE no spooge, very clean topend and pV assembly. That being said I dont have any imperical data that suggests 32:1 ratio is the best. I do know I have never had a part failure while using this ratio with mx2t and wear has been as good or better than any two cycle oil I have ran. Add to that the fact its cheap and burns cleaner at this ratio in a mx bike than anything I have tried(and I have tried alot,lol) and I have no reason to try another ratio.
BTW to update this thread a bit. It appears as if Mobil may have changed the formulation of MX2T. The msds now says it is carboxyl ester based. My inside guy said it was PAO beofre, but he may have been wrong and it could have been this way all along.


Posted by: clw---------------------

Are we back to Group 3?

carboxyl ester based = Group ? Where are the oil groups defined?

Thanks again


Posted by: bwalker---------------------

group 1= solvent refined dino
group 2= solvent refined and lightly hydrotreated
group3= severly hydrotreated, hydriosmerized, highly saturated, VHV index
group4= PAO's(Poly Alpha Olefins)
Group 5= esters of various sorts


Posted by: clw---------------------

Thanks Ben for the info.


Posted by: bedell99---------------------

I'm bring this thread back to life. So I went to Autozone to buy some washer fluid and long and behold I ended up picking up the new Mobil racing 2t oil. I have been thinking about switching brands for a while now(From Amsoil Dominator) and think mobil 2T is a good place to start. I know esters are the way to go for 2-strokes (maxima K2, Motul 800 and Silkolene Pro race) but does anybody have any info on what Mobils base stocks are. I always where under the assumption that it was a PAO oil.

Erik

Oh by the way for 8.99 a quart seems like a good deal to me, plus they finally dyed it red, so I can see I mixed it.


Posted by: Jaybird---------------------

I wonder where Mr Walker has been? (shrug)

Anywho...I am fairly certain that I am correct in telling you that Mobil1 Racing 2T (formely MX2T), is indeed an ester based fluid. (group V) (I think maybe Mobil DB-121 ester is being used [shrug])
Im also fairly certain that it has always been an ester based oil. Not trying to discredit Mr. Walkers source, I just feel he was wrong on this one. BTW..I know Mr. Morrison and I don't think he would try to lead anyone astray with bad info...he just may have missed this one.

IMO, there is no better type of oil for the two stroke motor under any conditions than an ester base.
Some tend to see benefits of adding castor to an ester base, but I have mixed emotions on that.
I honestly think it is more of a smell issue than anything, which surprizingly sells lots of oil.
Esters simply stink when burned.

Of course many do not consider the additive packages of these oils. Which, IMO is probably more impotant in the end, than the base stock. The molecular additives play a much more important role in the protection of the two stroke engine, than does the base viscocity, which is of the utmost impotance in an oil sump like on a 4 stroke.
In an oil sump, we must be concerned with the oil base staying in grade...in other words, you want the oil to stay thick enough to remain 40wt...and not degrade to a point of lesser weight like <30wt.
In the 2 stroke, we are more concerned with the additives that reach the metal parts, and the viscocity of the fluid is of less importance, as we have the tool of carb jetting to adjust any discrepencies with viscocity. Another thing to consider is that esters, unlike their organic counterparts, serve as a barrier additive and perform at the molecular level by manipulating the surface metals (just like the additives do)...where dino oil can only provide protection by creating a film thickness between the moving parts.

When it comes to the integrity of the additive packages of oils, there are none with better adds than Mobil and Chevron products.
(yikes...here come the rabid Amsoil guys with their marketing speil....)
BUT... I will add that there are other oils out there that are also ester based, and have a very robust additive package...one good example would be Maxima K2. It is a fantastic oil that rates up there with the best of the best, like Mobil...however, you must consider that Maxima K2 is TWICE or more the price of Mobil1 Racing 2T, yet is not a "better" built oil. (~ $8 pint)

bedell, yes the dye is a plus...and I believe it is the only change the fluid has ever made.
But, you may want to shop around if you can, Racing 2T should cost around $7.00 qt. It's priced within pennies of that at every AutoZone in my area.


Posted by: mtk---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwalker
group 1= solvent refined dino
group 2= solvent refined and lightly hydrotreated
group3= severly hydrotreated, hydriosmerized, highly saturated, VHV index
group4= PAO's(Poly Alpha Olefins)
Group 5= esters of various sorts


Technically, Group 5 is an "everything else" category and not specifically esters.


Posted by: bedell99---------------------

Thank you for the informative response. I jsut found the MSDS report on the oil. It is ester based, but also has a fair about of group 3 oils in it. I will start using it in the next batch and give a report in a couple of months.

http://www.host1.exxonmobil.com/psi...umentFormat=RTF

Erik


Posted by: bwalker---------------------

MX2T, now called Racing 2T is a ester based oil. The proprietary and unique addiitve package is what really makes it special though.

Quote:
Technically, Group 5 is an "everything else" category and not specifically esters.

Thats correct. There are other basestocks than esters that are classed as group 5's. PAG's and Akalated Napthalenes are two that come to mind.

BTW In another thread it was said MX2T contained kerosene. It does not contain kerosene, but rather a Mobil made low flash dilluant that is classified as Kerosene for the CAS lisitng. Again the dilluant used in MX2t isnt Kerosene. I actually tracked it down via cas#s to the exact diluant used.

Quote:
Thank you for the informative response. I jsut found the MSDS report on the oil. It is ester based, but also has a fair about of group 3 oils in it. I will start using it in the next batch and give a report in a couple of months.

thats the dilluant I was talking about. All two stroke oils contain dilluants.



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