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can rm250 be cool for TIGHT woods?

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Posted by: Nevada Sixx---------------------

ok.. i like the deal i saw on a rm250..i have a 125 now that has nice manners in the woods, but its still low on power.
i always hear people on here say a 250 is a handful in the woods, but i was thinking of gearing it down, and adding 13oz flyweight, and a reed spacer.
i like the kdx, but i need one that can jump as well, but im worried about the weak bottom end and violent hit of a 250,, kinda a bad situation isnt it....i'd like to hear some input from people who ride a 250 in eastern woods if any are out there....???


Posted by: beer_stud_76---------------------

nevada -

for the reccord, i do not ride an MX 250 in eastern woods, but I know a number of guys who ride them here in western Washington (dense forests, tight single track, clay).

the woods modifications you have described ought to smooth out the RM power nicely. the only down side is that MX bikes don't have steering geometery for the woods - but if you are riding a 125 MXer in the woods now than you have obviously overcome the steering geometery limitation.

if you like the bike and are willing to retune it as you described then i think an RM250 will go through the woods just fine.


jeremiah


Posted by: woodsy---------------------

I wont be critical of the RM's cause you didnt specificly ask for it. I will say this - both my 95 and my 96 were AWESOME in the woods!!! They were extremely nimble, tractable and power was right - stock! The only thing needed was narrow the bars to 29 1/2 and add rally pro's/fool with the comp /rebound and raise the forks 5mm!! Personaly I thought the RM was one of the better MX to off-road conversions out there (as far as handing/even power).
Whould I buy another, that wont happen (ooopss I wasnt going to go there)...
What year are you looking at?
Woodsy


Posted by: Nevada Sixx---------------------

its a 03.. but what is it about narrowing the bars? does that really help?
and if you dont mind, tell me why you wouldnt buy another? and what would you get instead?


Posted by: beer_stud_76---------------------

MX bikes need wide bars for clipping other racers and hard cornering in deep ruts (or so i've heard). narrowing the bars is no big deal. some people like it, some people don't. you'll lose some leverage but your bike will handle quicker and you'll tend to hit fewer trees. i say ride a few times with the bars the way they are. maybe you won't need to narrow them.


jeremiah


Posted by: Reesknight---------------------

I ride an MX bike in tight eastern woods and the mods your talking about should work just fine.  The biggest drawback is the narrow gearing.  It makes it a bit jumpy but that can be handled with good throttle and clutch control.  Make sure you get good handguards....I recommend Enduro Engineering.  Cutting the bars are just for getting through the tight trees.  I don't have mine cut because I also like to ride MX sometimes so I just wiggle through and bounce off a few!


Posted by: OldassKDX---------------------

MX geometry?


Posted by: mackay---------------------

I'm with the others here that state that a 250MX bike would be fine in the woods. There will always be some small compromises but with a little time on the machine you will adapt. Look at CNCC racers many use modified MX bikes, enduro riders some use modified MX bikes and at the same time I've heard of people in Dirtrider.net using enduro bikes on a MX track. Familiarity with the machine is what wll make it usable in the woods, so don't sweat it. If you want more power and you found a great deal on a RM250 then you should go for it, ride it and modify the machine based on your experience.
I like narrower bars in the woods (but not everyone does) I like handguards (but not everyone does) I like to gear my bike a bit lower (but not everyone does), can you see the pattern?


Posted by: Matt90GT---------------------

250 MX bikes are great in the woods. Manufacturers have been taking them and making woods bikes out them with mods for years:

Wr205Fs
WR250s
RMX250s
KDX250s

What the manufacturers typically do is kill the power with less compression and bad exhuast intake, destroy the jetting and then add lights and a WR gearbox. All these can be swapped out to the more aggressive MX version settings with a little money and time.

I have a KDX that is basically a KX motor now and have had several CR 250s in the woods. The low end power of the 250 is really nice on steep climbs vs say a 125 bike. The only thing that I did not like about the CRs is the close ratio gearboxes on open fireroads. You topped out the bike about 60-65mph. Never an issue in the woods, but eastern oregon it is. That is where the WR gearbox shines.


Posted by: Nevada Sixx---------------------

hey matt90,, tell me what all you did to you kdx motor to make it like a kx.. and did you ever have your cr250's try to loop out more often than your kdx?


Posted by: woodsy---------------------

Hey Nevada Matt90 is going to come back on and tell you what he did (he is very reliable so I know he will). I will just tell you that what he did/says WORKS!! My 91 KDX250 has the his mod suggestions done to it (thanks Matt) and the bike is a screamer with a WR tranny!!
Oh by the way, as far as the narrow bars go, I shorten ALL of mine - the way I fiqure it the less chance of bumpin a tree at speed the better off I am!! I have tried narrower then 29 1/2 and found that width to be PERFECT for me...
Woodsy


Posted by: flying W---------------------

If you run trails mostly in 3rd gear or higher then the RM should be a fun ride. If the trails are technical and you spend a fair amount of time in 3rd gear or lower then without a alot of modification the RM will be a handfull and will wear you out. Plan on spending a minimum of $500-1000 to make it a good trail bike (but then it might not jump well).


Posted by: Nevada Sixx---------------------

on my old 125, im usually in 3rd or under...so should i just get a kdx and hop it up for light duty mx? man, why does buying a bike have to be so hard...


Posted by: ktm033---------------------

you could always buy a KTM EXC or MXC already to go out of the box for off road riding, save yourself some money, know that its done right, just a thought.


Posted by: yzeater---------------------

Yes.

http://www.cyclenews.com/StoryImages/1143.jpg/


Posted by: beer_stud_76---------------------

nevada -

don't loose your nerve. you're headed in the right direction with the RM. IMPMFO, its easier to make an MX bike trail friendly than to make a trail bike (like the KDX) a good track bike.

what KTM033 said is true, but what you're thinking with the RM would work too.


jeremiah


Posted by: ktm033---------------------

beerstud, agreed, RM is a very nice bike, I think too often people have it in their minds that the KTM's are just too expensive, not true! Same price, sometimes less, sometimes more but for a bike built for a specific need in this case woods racing can't go wrong with orange! No longer the big four, big five, although with Suzuki/Kawasaki working jointly now they are sort of one so you have the big four again; Yamaha, Honda, KTM, Kawa/Zuki.


Posted by: flying W---------------------

The fact is that there is not a bike that does both MX and trails well. A stiff MX suspension will not soak up the rocks and roots that are found on trails. This forces your body to absorb the shock of all those little bumps and it drains your energy. On the other hand, a plush enduro suspension will not abosrb big jump landings and again the shock gets transferred to the body.
I would say that it's best to decide what type of riding is most important to you and go with that type of bike.


Posted by: tigerowner---------------------

This is a little off subject but I have to clear something up. The "wide bars for MX and narrow for woods" is a bit misleading. While it is true that cutting your bars down helps get you through in tight situations it is not the reason to cut your bars down. Bars are intentionally made wide so you can cut them to fit your natural arm spread (made that term up). To determine proper bar width have somone measure the distance between the inside of your hands while you are doing push-ups or bench presses. THat is the distance your hands should be apart on the bars. Take into account the length ogf the grip and cut off the extra. To prove my point try doing pushups with your hands too far apart or too close together and see how much harder it is.


Posted by: Nevada Sixx---------------------

that is a good tip about doing bench press to find out how much to cut a bar..thanks...
But getting back to the rm in the woods,, wouldnt letting the clickers out a bit help make the bike soft for roots?


Posted by: beer_stud_76---------------------

nevada -

i'm a bit confused now...do you want to ride/race in the woods AND MX? or do you want a woods bike that you can jump at the gravel pit every now and again? the way i understood your question was you want a bike for spirited trail riding that you could launch occasionally. if this is what you are going for then you're on the right track.

however, if you are MXing too, well...i still think you are on the right track though you might have to compromise some of those trail mods you mentioned.

as for bars as wide as a bench press grip? thats pretty damn wide. i can see maybe the pushup spacing but i don't think i can even get bars as wide as my bench grip.


jeremiah


Posted by: flying W---------------------

"But getting back to the rm in the woods,, wouldnt letting the clickers out a bit help make the bike soft for roots?"

This is the experience that I have had trying to tune a MX suspension (CR500)for trails. I softend the compression to the point where I thought it absorbed the small hits well but then the turning and stability were now bad. It became apparent to me that I could tune for turning ability or plushness but I could not get both at the same time.


Posted by: Nevada Sixx---------------------

i ride 50/50 trails/mx,, on a fast beginner level,,so when i say jumps, i mean about 30 feet or so on the doubles that are allowed on the beginner class races.


Posted by: flying W---------------------

Do you race?


Posted by: beer_stud_76---------------------

navada -

in that case you are going to have to sacrifice performance on one or the other for the benefit of one or the other.

why not keep the 125 for the track and make the 250 a woods bike?


Posted by: Chief---------------------

Nevada Sixx,

I ride an 01 rm 250 in tight Eastern Woods and love it. I've ridden 125's and prefer the 250. Its' ability to grunt up hills makes it a good woodsbike.

I have reduced the tension on my exhaust valve in the past to flatten out low end. Eric Gore reduced the compression so I could run it on good pump gas. I use stock gearing. I have no problem with it although I still have to fan the clutch on the tightest/rockiest of trails.

The forks are very harsh for woods, I am sending them out soon for a re-valve.

I got a super deal on my bike, then had to put a few bucks into it so it works well for me, I'm used to the bike and at this point would be reluctant to change machines now.

I also think the KTM's are worth checking into as they are more ready to ride out of the box, even if they are a little more $.

My buddy just bought a 125 ATK. I've ridden this bike and it is a super woods machine (for a 125) They also make it in 250 and 260 models (all 2 stroke). They come woods ready for a great price, performance is close to MX. They have a lighting coil, gold talon hubs, kickstand, aftermarket bars, frameguards.... Things you might want to put on a new MX bike for woods. You can see it if you click on My Pics below. It's tied down in 2 of the shots, so you can't see how it's sprung.

Joe Chief


Posted by: WoodsRider---------------------

Keep in mind one persons definition of tight woods is different than another persons. To me, the pic posted on the previous page shows a nice highway. Tight woods means first gear-slow and sidewinder-twisty. Throw in an off-camber switchback goat trail on the side of a steep, muddy hill, in the rain, and you've got the perfect excuse for not riding an MX bike in the woods. I'm not saying it can't be done with an MX bike, but there are better machines just for this sort of riding. Rarely do you encounter this kind of trail in an enduro or even on a regular trail ride. It takes a real sadist who loves watching others cringe with pain to layout something of that magnitude. :confused:


Posted by: Nevada Sixx---------------------

no,, i dont race, but i may enter one for fun..
what was that someone said about pump gas and compression? all we have here is pump gas,, will a new rm not run on pump?


Posted by: Fred T---------------------

Quote:
Originally posted by Chief
Nevada Sixx,

I also think the KTM's are worth checking into as they are more ready to ride out of the box, even if they are a little more $.

Joe Chief


Huh? 250CC
RM $5899 MSRP
KX $5899 MSRP
YZ $5899 MSRP
EX/C $5695 MSRP

I missed the Cr but it's probably $5899


Posted by: ktm033---------------------

CR250 $5899 and just for good measure250SX $5798.....better and less expensive, hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.


Posted by: Chief---------------------

Thanks Fred.

I had a feeling someone might set me straight on that one. I bought my RM in August of 01 (granted the new models weren't far off) for 5,024 Out the door. That's tax included. I've seen the same bike (01) not more than 3 months ago w/ a tag of 5800, so I think I got somewhat of a good deal in my case. Your point is well taken. I wasn't aware that KTM models were priced so reasonably. Prices you mentioned on the jap models are generally what they sell for here. Maybe some dealing could mean that's out the door. Otherwise you'd be over 6 grand.

Woodsrider, to me that trail pictured would also be mild, I've ridden the goat trails that never let me out of 1st gear. Some of the jeep trails at Paragon for one example. They would be the extreme for my riding experience. I'm not in topnotch shape, not to race anyway, a mediocre rider at best, Yet I've enjoyed riding many of these trails and consider them a challenge. I'm no more sore or hurt after these rides than I am from wide open riding. 80 percent of the guys I ride with are faster than me on all the local terrain. They have more time in and are on mx bikes.

The reason I prefer my mx bike is because I don't just ride the tightest trails you describe, they are at one end of the spectrum. (not including trials) My bike performs well over the varied terrain I ride. From tight woods to polelines, RR beds, Culm hills, wet clay twisty hills, MX Tracks, to trails like the one pictured, etc. I wouldn't trade my Rm for any XR or drz out there. They don't feel right to me. Then again, that's just my preference but to me that's all that counts. I'm just happy to get out with friends who enjoy the sport.

Nevada Sixx, the 01 was very finicky on fuel. I don't know what the deal is on newer years. I tried a few different pump fuels and to me the bike was barely rideable. Once I had the head modded I tried amoco 93 as per EG's suggestion and it runs fine now. I'm not sure how the amoco would have performed without the mod(S), just guessing it wouldn't have mattered much. Others with the same year have used a mix of race/pump fuel and were satisfied with the performance. If you post a question on the 01 or 02 models, you should get more response. I hate to risk bothering a busy man, but Eric Gore could tell you what you needed to know enginewise on either year.

Joe Chief


Posted by: Nevada Sixx---------------------

i'll have to look into the pump gas thing on the other board,, but getting back to woods.. my only concern is that having to ride first and second gear all the time would cause the rm to load up alot and not run smooth, and im concerned about it not having enough low rpm lug, and then power surges while on a hill. So do you guys think a 250 can be controllable on power like an enduro bike if i have the right gearing and flyweight? and maybe a pipe?????


Posted by: ktm033---------------------

The 250 EXC is very controllable and cheaper than the RM250....


Posted by: Reesknight---------------------

Quote:
Originally posted by WoodsRider
Keep in mind one persons definition of tight woods is different than another persons. To me, the pic posted on the previous page shows a nice highway. Tight woods means first gear-slow and sidewinder-twisty. Throw in an off-camber switchback goat trail on the side of a steep, muddy hill, in the rain, and you've got the perfect excuse for not riding an MX bike in the woods. :confused:

Geez, you can get all that in one picture? I guarantee you won't be riding the trail in the pic in anything other than first gear. That same trail contains all the things you just mentioned, just wasn't raining that day. :silly: Any bike can be set up for any kind of riding, just depends on how much money your willing to spend to do it. Now lets see that pic of YOUR trail.


Posted by: WoodsRider---------------------

Whoa, I'm not trying to start an argument here. All I said was that picture looks like a highway. It may be way different up close or around the bend. I didn't see any rocks though.

Since I don't carry my camera into the woods (never needed one to fix a bike) all I have are shots taken by others. Below is the notorious Ledges from the Mudslinger Enduro. The riders are all AA an A level. I'm sure it looks easy from the picture though.


Posted by: Reesknight---------------------

Nice pic, Woodsrider! Guess I'm just a bit sensitive :confused: The pic I posted was part of a trail that was voted the SETRA enduro of the year last year. If you know any SETRA racers, ask them about the Coal Creek Enduro. I helped work it this fall and was doing like the guys in your pic are doing, except on a hill filled with wet roots and slippery rocks. Whew, I get tired just thinking about it. If you look closely at the pic, you'll notice the bark missing off the 2 closest trees because they're not handlebar width(uncut) apart. It was about the only place I could stop, take a pic and get going again. Pictures just don't do a good trail justice. I don't know about you, but it always seems to be those things I CAN'T see on the trail that jump up and bite me! Sorry, I was a bit snippy!


Posted by: WoodsRider---------------------

No problem. It's like looking at a picture of a hill and saying "that doesn't look hard." However the perspective is a lot different when you're at the bottom, it's muddy, there's no run and the arrows all point up. :confused:

Very few NETRA enduros have "tight" woods. Most simply beat the hell out of you in the rock gardens. For that reason I don't cut my bars down. This does present some problems when trying to negotiate the goat trails at the club property so I usually just aim for the smaller tree and hope it bends. The Speedsville (ECEA/WNYOA) Enduro this year which had some "tight" virgin singletrack sections. I had to slow down and wiggle my bars through several spots, but it was worth it when riding through the rocky creek bottoms.

Bark on trees can give you an extra inch or two. This works great in pines or oaks, but don't try it with a birch. I had a nasty get-off riding through some birch trees up in Michigan. :scream:


Posted by: DANIEL JOSEPH---------------------

Nice picture, where'd you get that from?


Posted by: WoodsRider---------------------

Some bozo!

Notice those guys are all struggling on MX bikes.


Posted by: DANIEL JOSEPH---------------------

Quote:
Originally posted by WoodsRider
Some bozo!

Notice those guys are all struggling on MX bikes.
All CR's too


Posted by: flying W---------------------

I hear that KTM makes the best compromise (MX/Trail) bike. I've never ridden a KTM enduro on a MX track but a buddy of mine says his does pretty well.


Posted by: kev_rm---------------------

I'm pretty happy with my rm250 in the woods. I've added a big tank and a flywheel weight, it's completely managable - even without the flywheel weight it's just a matter of riding technique - and plenty of clutch abuse on the hills.


Posted by: Nevada Sixx---------------------

man .., you must have some huge hills out your way...do you ever loop out on them? did you do anything to the gearing? thanks.


Posted by: xcracer72---------------------

Don't cut your bars!!! do get a hydraulic clutch, it will ad alot of finesse to your much needed clutch work in the TIGHT woods


Posted by: alligatorbling---------------------

i do alot of woods riding on my rm, i think its an awsome woods bike once you learn it... but you know, its all in getting used to the bike.


Posted by: RMCoastie---------------------

A 3.5 year gap. I love it!!!



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