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for our Canadian neighbors
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Posted by: Tony Eeds---------------------

I just read an article about Canada that I found both interesting and disturbing at the same time in USS Clueless

I know that we in America live in a nationalistic bubble (as do the residents of many other countries) and I found the story linked above to be very interesting. I know a number of people from the Vancouver area and they have long expressed the fact that they felt disconnected from and forgotten by Eastern Canada. I also know there are a number of Canucks on the site and I would love some insight.

Also, what have you folks in the northern climes of America heard about this? Is the press just not covering this issue in the south, or is it still below the radar screen overall?

To quote pred .... Discuss among yourselves.

Posted by: nephron---------------------

It's long been evident that Canada's ruling class has been dominated by French idealistic leaders, who do not represent the majority of that country's opinion and stance on matters. I don't know if this stems from the French & Indian wars, or ...?

We should all be thankful and remember the Canadian invasion on the beach of Dieppe in August 1942...operation Jubilee...where 3600 Canadians were slaughtered senselessly, possibly as a 'test' run for the future Operation Overlord.

Posted by: CaNaDiAn,Eh?---------------------

The Easterners in Ontario and Quebec defanitely rule all in Canada. If something bad happens there then they expect us Westerners to help, however if something happens to us then there is no hope of help. For example with the mad cow scare the government is doing nothing to help the poor ranchers whose cattle they have taken and slaughtered, they don't even care. I believe it was the Quebec Premier who wanted to ban Western beef exports to Eastern Canada, just so the U.S of A would re-open the borders to them. All of the West's resources ( e.g-oil) are sent to the East so they can have cheap gas, while we have to pay the higher prices. It's just stupid. The Quebeckers are always complaining that they are so hard done by because they are French and are considered a minority, when really they don't know how good they have it. They should come live out west for awhile, then they could really have something to complain about. There are many examples of the East ruling the whole country. Hopefully we will have a better government when Jean Chretien retires in 2004. We defanitely can't do any worse. Canadians often do not agree with the decisions of the government, for example most Westerners agreed with the U.S.A's decision to go to war with Iraq. Hopefully Canada's internal stife will be laid to rest with the coming of the new Prime Minister in 2004. Despite all of this we are all still ' Proud To Be Canadian'

Posted by: Camstyn---------------------

This is a good article, very informative.. I agree with the author on many points, especially the western provinces being unhappy with our eastern ruling government. This should be an interesting thread.. All I'll say is that I love Canada, I love being a Canadian, but I really dislike our government. I have not educated myself much about the effects of becoming a U.S. territory, but I like the idea.

The only thing I really disagree with the author about is, to quote, "Canadians already have a chip on their shoulder about us; I can't see them actually accepting formal political subordination to us just for the chance to be considered for statehood in 30 years." This doesn't speak for all Canadians, I personally have no chip on my shoulder, and most of the people I know are with me on that.

Posted by: Chili---------------------

Anytime you have a government that is controlled by 2 out 12 Provinces and Territories you are never going to have equal representation. Currently there is 301 seats in the House of Commons, 208 of those are controlled by Ontario (103) and Quebec (75). I would agree that there is a great amount of disgust in Western Canada where everyday Canadians feel that they lack any true influence in the Federal Electoral process. We do not vote our Prime Minister into power the leader of the party which garners the most seats in the House of Commons is named Prime Minister. The chance that we will ever see a Prime Minister
who resides west Of Ontario is unlikely to happen during any of our lifetimes.

As far as some Provinces becoming States I would suggest again that we will never see it during any of our lifetimes. Despite unrest about the government I feel most Canadians are proud to be Canadian.

Posted by: MDA---------------------

OK, I have to wade in here with my two cents.

First, I can't deny that Quebec and Ontario dominate the political landscape. How can it not since our system is population based. Highest population gets the most representation.

I dissagree that Canada lacks unity. Most of what is going on is political wrangling looking for more federal dollars. It happens in the US as well. Individual states want more access to federal funds and want more autonomy. That does not mean they lack unity. Its politics. Its political leaders wanting to do the most for thier constituents. Unfotunately in Canada some provinces are using words like separation to shake things up and gather attention.

I also dissagree that Canadians lack an identity. I just don't think Canadians realise what that identity is because we are ,by our nature, less aggresive in our patriotism. Canadians are a free people that live in a country born through peace. We achieved our independance by proving to the British monarchy that we were capable of responsible governance. No war, no glorious conflicts by which to identify... just peace. Canada is a tolerant and progressive society. We are made up of a multitude of cultural backgrounds, but unlike the US which claims itself to be a melting pot, we encourage multiculturalism. All of our internal issues have been dealt with peacefully (ok there was the FLQ crisis but on a world issue that was small).

Our soldiers have made us proud when they have been called to action, and our peace keepers continue to do so in modern times. We have done a Lion's share on the world stage despite our limited resources.

Canada has a population of 30 million people spread over the world's second largest land mass. How could its unity be questioned when such geographical obstructions could have easily discouraged such cooperation.

By no means is Canada a utopia. We have our share of issues and problems. We have the last remaining super power as a neighbour. Its like a mouse sharing a bed with a 800 pound gorilla. The US is a super power in more ways than just military, but also in terms of popular culture. How can we not sometimes go through an identity crisis and use that US as a baseline to describe ourselves. With that being said, we share the world's longest undefended border with the US. We are each others largest trading parter. We are inseperable in many ways. We have historically dissagreed on many subjects with the US (slavery, Vietnam, Iraq, decriminalization of marijuana, etc, etc). We are a sovereign nation, we are entitled to a difference of opinion. We always manage to work things out. I wouldn't want any one else as a neighbour.

I for one am not worried about the unity of Canada. We've come this far together, we will work things out.

-Mark-

Whoa, how's that for "off topic"...

Posted by: Highbeam---------------------

The northern states, at least the northwestern, aren't aware of any problems. The media can hardly keep up with reporting the crime and disasters. Perhaps this is more of an issue back east.

Posted by: lunchbox---------------------

Quote:

Originally posted by MDA
Our soldiers have made us proud when they have been called to action, and our peace keepers continue to do so in modern times. We have done a Lion's share on the world stage despite our limited resources.

I agree. My unit had the great experience of working along side some Canadian Peacekeepers on a few missions here in Bosnia just a few weeks ago. What a great professional group of people. You all should be proud of the job they are doing. :thumb:

Posted by: Neil Wig---------------------

MDA, although I agree with some of your points, you appear to be blind to what is actually going on in the west. For example, what is your stance on gun control and registration? Do you even own a gun? If so, where could you use it on a regular basis? I spend a fair bit of time all over Canada. I've been through Quebec City, Montreal, Toronto, Hull, Ottowa, the Niagra region, and on east to New Brunswick and Newfoundland. I've travelled all through western Canada, with the exception of Manitoba. If you don't believe there is a huge inequality of government spending, you are seriously deluded.

The east honestly expects the SARs incident to be classified as a national disaster. Get a grip. It effected the tourist industry in one eastern city, and it is suddenly a disaster. What about those effected in Vancouver? Were you even aware that there was an issue in Vancouver?

If you doubt the east/west issue is very real, travel a bit.

I am very proud to be Canadian, but it is a shame we are lead by fools.

Posted by: CaNaDiAn,Eh?---------------------

Quote:

Originally posted by Neil Wig
MDA, although I agree with some of your points, you appear to be blind to what is actually going on in the west. For example, what is your stance on gun control and registration? Do you even own a gun?If you don't believe there is a huge inequality of government spending, you are seriously deluded.
I am very proud to be Canadian, but it is a shame we are lead by fools.

Neil, I completely agree with you. There needs to be much more communication between provinces and governments. There also needs to be equal representation in our government. Every province should have an equal say regardless of size, wealth and power. Equal representation could fix to some degree many of the problems found throughout Canada. The East needs to be brought up to date on the concerns of the western provinces. The Western provinces must pay equalization payments to Quebec, and the Easterners think that is just fine. However, when it comes time to help out the West there doesn't seem to be any funding left. I am very proud to be Canadian and love my country with a passion. I also think that we have worked to hard to gain sovereignty to throw it away by joining the United States. Canada is a great country, and despite the constant complaints I doubt and seriouly hope that we will never see something as drastic as separation. I am and always will be proud to be Canadian. The vast majority of Canadians care to much for our country to let it be broken up.

Posted by: MDA---------------------

Niel,

My intent was not to say that everything was fair and rosy. Far from it. My point (which I am starting to doubt I communicated effectively) was that Canada was not on the brink of complete collapse as implied by the original article, and that we do have a sense of identity.

A few points to note, I was born, raised and educated in New Brunswick. I know how hard it is for certain people (i.e. fisherman) to get federal relief money in hard times. I've traveled to EVERY province in this great country (including Manitoba), and no I don't own a gun. I have no need for one since I no longer hunt. My father has two guns, he registered his guns. He still uses them to hunt like he always did. I don't dissagree that there should be a gun registry, but I don't agree with how this one has been implemented. What harm is there in regestering guns? It does not prevent you from owning one. We register cars and motorcycles, how is it different?

Has the West been treated differently than Ontario/Quebec. Yes. So has the Atlantic provices. Its a fact of life that the majority of this country's tax paying population is concentrated in these two provinces. Equal representation won't truly exist as long as we base that representation on population, and that is not likely to change. The solution in my opinion is a reformation of the senate. The senate currently serves no purpose. It should be a non partisan elected body which could ballance provincial representaion.

Has the government been slow to react to the Mad Cow issue? This is a tough one to answer. Did you expect them to start dolling out cash the instant the border was closed to Canadian beef? If so, that is unrealistic. Yes this is a serious issue and the health/agriculture people were praised for thier fast/transparent handling of the case. I do think that Canadian beef farmers should get some form of compensation, but I don't think they should get it without first having some form of understanding how widespread the problem and an idea of how long the border will be closed. Any money given for SARS relief was not handed out immediately either. Oh, and yes I was very aware that Vancouver had numerous SARS cases. The difference is that Toronto got singled out by the WHO. An don't forget that the population of metro Toronto is the basically the same as the entire provice of Alberta, and that is not counting the suburbs. The SARS case in Toronto is not trivial. The government just does not work at light speed. It takes time. Perceived inactivity does not mean you are being marginalized.

Hey, this would make a great debate over a couple of beers after a long ride. Too bad we live so friggin far appart. The problem with debating an issue like this in text only is that so much is lost without hearing voice intonation and body language. Sometimes you read something and you get the impression that the other guys is foaming at the mouth when all he meant to do was be clever.

In any case, I respect your viewpoints since I don't live out West. I can travel all I want, I wouldn't really get a feel for life out there unless I lived there myself. My perspective is from the Maritimes. I only live in Ottawa because this is where I was able to find work.

-Mark-

Posted by: JTT---------------------

I thought your comments didn't sound very "Upper Canadian" Mark

...and be careful folks, Canada does not end at Quebec (although many would have you beleive it does). I can assure you that everything is not "rosy" out here on the "forgotten coast" either.

Overall though I am very proud to be Canadian. Our history, as nephron pointed out part of, is a proud and heroic one, always with peace and moderation close at heart.

The greatest problem with this country is it's so darn big, makes it hard to ride with all the great people across it :thumb:

Posted by: Erick82---------------------

Very interesting, I always thought of Canada as one big happy place where everyone drank alot and watched hockey on Saturday night. I did here about your gun control issues since I am a member of the NRA. Recently though there seems to be increasing tension between the countries, border control conflicts and political differences. This has informed me of vast political differences within the nation.

Posted by: CaNaDiAn,Eh?---------------------

As JTT said, our problem is that we are just such a darn big, diverse country.
For the most part it is a big happy country. As much as everyone complains, we love our country just as much as anyone else does.

Posted by: CaNaDiAn,Eh?---------------------

I also agree that the Maritimes don't have it to great either when it comes to representation. When it comes to such issues, the maritimes and the west are in the same boat.

Posted by: Neil Wig---------------------

If you look at California vs Idaho vs New York, you will see similar differences in politics, lifestyle, and political representation.

Do you believe Idaho has the same political power as California or New York?

I don't think seperation of Canada is going to happen, nor do I believe seperation to be a positive thing.

The senate should be abolished outright. It serves no purpose but to drain tax dollars.

We need a serious revamp of out political system. Having a leader that is not elected by the people is flawed at best.

Joining the US is unrealistic, and counter productive.

There are no easy solutions.

Later

Posted by: MDA---------------------

Well said....

Posted by: JTT---------------------

Agreed.

Posted by: nephron---------------------

Yeah, yeah, yeah...but the real question is what's Canadian for 'hick'? They called me 'backwoods' in Kali.

To be serious, though--I know little enough about Canada to have just been enlightened by you all that Canada apparently has extreme population discrepancies from coast to coast and perhaps territory to territory...much moreso than the US. Therein lies the source of the issue, but I don't perceive it as a problem because all in all, representation by population is the best compromise. This is coming from a guy whose dad farms, and had water usage and rights 'legislated' away by Eastern Kansas politicians that haven't even set foot out here. The problem is ubiquitous...but it's still the best compromise, as MDA had referred to.

I agree that the idea of making western Canada a province of the US is a freakin' joke. Firstly, I DO perceive Canadians as having a distinct identity far and away from a US identity. Secondly, it would just look bad if we actually took over land and people without doing it with force or a 'trail of tears' or something.

(that last part?...just a joke

. No flames please)

Posted by: Neil Wig---------------------

Hey Neph

You may get your takeover by force, complete with a trail of tears....as soon as the US needs the water that covers most of Northern Saskatchewan and Manitoba.

Ponder this. The largest city in Saskatchewan is about 270,000. The entire population of Saskatchewan is just under 1 million persons. Saskatchewan is relatively large, about 600 miles wide, by 1800 miles long. The southern 1/3 of the province is covered with a standard 1 mile grid road system that puts a minimum of one grid road per liniar mile, running east and west, north and south. Given this massive amount of roadsurface, and our low, scattered population, what condition do you suppose the roads are in? Let's just say it's very easy to tell when you enter Alberta, or Montana. Does anyone wonder why we have a lot of 4x4s in my neck of the woods? So, can you figure out how much taxation it takes to maintain this road system. They used to use our "gas tax" to keep the roads in good shape. Our federal government, in their infinite wisdom, no longer applies all of the "road tax" to fixing roads. If you go to Ontario, you can see how this makes sense. Every inch of road surface there is paved. What effect do you suppose this has on the lifespan of vehicles, and thereby cost of living? Do ya suppose we have a few coyotes, foxes, badgers, gophers, bears, deer, geese, ducks, etc, etc.
What effect do you think that would have on the lifespan and insurance on vehicles? Which brings us back to cost of living...
Why not tailor the taxation to the region it is being removed from? I realize this makes way too much sense for a politition to follow, but it's really that simple. I don't expect Saskatchewan to get the lions share of tax dollars. I do expect tax dollars to be either used within the area they are gathered, or dispursed based on need, not population and political "favors".

Off the soapbox I go........ :confused:

Posted by: CaNaDiAn,Eh?---------------------

One of the things that bug me the most is equalization payments. I don't see why the west should have to pay money to Quebec because they do not make as much income as the provinces in the west do, especially when western roads, education, and health care are in such a sorry state. Personally, I also think that the tax money should stay where it was gathered in the first place. I think there are lots of things that can use improvement in the west that really needs the funds that we are required to dole out to the east. But maybe that's just me.

Posted by: JTT---------------------

Carefull now, the Atlantic Provinces are the ones most dependant on equalization payments. Without them the Atlantic Provinces would disappear...well all but the Upper Canadian and Western based companies sucking up all our natural resources

(only because our provincial governments are so used to begging for scraps, that they roll over like a submissive puppy) Quebec is another issue entirely though.

Posted by: CaNaDiAn,Eh?---------------------

I didn't mean to say that the Maritimes did not need ( or deserve for that matter) equalization payments. I know the maritimers got the short end of the stick when it comes to natural resources. All they really have is their fish, which unfortunately is quickly depleting. I have nothing against the maritimes, I just happen to think that Quebec probably doesn't need the payments. This may just have been a rumor but I actually heard that Quebec wants more money so they can effectively preserve their culture. What a waste of money, the money should be spent of something useful like education, roads and the economy. If Quebec can afford to spend the payments on preserving their culture then I would say that they don't really need them. In my humble opinion Quebec gets to many favors from the federal government. Just because they are French they seem to deserve more than the rest of Canada. However, my complaints are with the Quebec provincial government not the actual people, as I have know quite a few nice people from that area. And one thing I defanitely don't want is for Quebec to separate from the rest of Canada, as that would be distatrous (luckily separation doesn't seem to be a threat anymore). If they separated the rest of Canada would be separated from the Maritimes, which would defanitely be a bad thing. I think one of the major issues Canada faces is the gap between the French and the English people. If everyone felt that they were equal to one another then there would be less room for misunderstandings. All in all Canada is a great place, there just needs to be more communication between people, provinces and governments.

Posted by: JTT---------------------

Hey, we got lots of natural gas and oil too, only we like to give it away at below cost to keep the Feds rubbing our belly's and telling us "your good Canadians, good Canadians"

...let's also not forget that we supply Quebec with virtually free electricity...that they sell to the US for profit

Your right about the French/English differences and the fact that it is almost entirely political. I have lots of freinds and dealing with Quebec people and can assure you it is rarely coming from them. Great people! Only wish I spoke the language

Posted by: nephron---------------------

Quote:

I don't expect Saskatchewan to get the lions share of tax dollars. I do expect tax dollars to be either used within the area they are gathered, or dispursed based on need, not population and political "favors".

Neil, are you saying that money ISN'T allocated, at least SOMEWHAT according to where it was earned?

You know, this is the absolute dumbest I have felt in years. I really don't know anything about your system, and I'm sorry about that. Do you not have a province-based 'tax' allocation setup (like our 'state taxes')? Or really, does 60% of your paycheck go to freakin' Ontario?

I would be pissed, too. I sure hope I'm wrong.

Posted by: MDA---------------------

nephron,

All Canadian pay federal income tax. All Canadians then pay a provincial tax which is calculated based on a percentage of your federal tax. So in short, yes there is a garanteed amount that stays within the individual provinces. Like states in the US, the provices have jurisdiction over specific sectors/services. Education, health care, natural resources... all provincial responsibilities. The federal government is responsible for national issues like defence, employment insurance, pensions, etc. With that being said, many provincial/federal disputes arise from shared sectors/responsibilities such as road building. The federal government oftens shares the cost of road building with the provices. It is in these "shared" instances that some provices "get the shaft".

Another big issue is health care. While it is a provincial jurisdiction, the federal government dictates that health care be universal accross the country. That is to say that from Coast to Coast, all Canadians receive the same level of care and accessibility. To achieve this the federal government often kicks in extra cash. The provices often dispute that the federal government is not giving enough....

As you can see some of it is politics (squeeky wheel gets the grease) and in some cases some provices get screwed.

Oh, and between federal, provincial, municipal taxes, sales taxes, cigarette and gas taxes.... yes a lot of our money goes to the government. It sounds awful, but we get a lot for it in return. We complain about it a lot, but when you need those social services, we are glad to have them. I've had numerous health issues including recently breaking an arm that required a pin and four screws to repair it. When I left the hospital after a stay of a week my bill was $50.00 for a television rental. Not too shabby if you ask me.

There is not perfect system, but considering our low population, and large geography, I think we do quite well.

-Mark-

Posted by: Neil Wig---------------------

Our health care is splendid. I went into emergency with a broken collar bone. It took over 5 hours before I got an x-ray. Then they were going to send me out the door with 5, count 'em, 5 tylenol 3's, no perscription for more, AND NO SLING. The collar bone healed with a vertical and horizontal missalignment that should have been pinned. If you have cancer, and want to survive, pony up the bucks, and head south. The only cure our system has for serious cancer cases is dirt.

With regards to the "shared" cost of road work, come on out to Saskatchewan, and tell me how much shared work is being done to our zillion miles of grid roads. This is a farming province, which needs access to the feilds. Of course with all the federal aid we get for our farmers, they should be able to maintain the roads themselves. Do you detect a note of sarcasm?

Later

Posted by: MDA---------------------

Neil,

The road issue was intended to demonstrate exactly that point. Just because the federal government shares the cost of road construction doesn't mean they share it evenly.

I'm sorry to hear about your injury and the level of care you received. I have never experience anything like what you have described (in both Ontario and New Brunswick). I do know there are long waiting lists for MRI's and some cancer therapies. Yes if you want to jump the queue you can head south to a private "for profit" clinic.

Also, just because health care is universal, doesn't mean its universally good. But like I said, I've had nothing but good treatment and care and I have had a lot of medical issues.

-Mark-

Posted by: JTT---------------------

Sadly, I too have had few positive experiences with our Health care system. In fact I just got back from a 3 hour wait to have an x-ray done on a knee that I will now wait 8-12 months to see an Ortho specialist about. Glad to hear someone has had good success, at least it gives me some hope.

Hey Neil, how about 6 hrs to have a dislocated finger looked at, only to have the "Doctor" attempt to relocate it 4 times, before she finally says "you want to have a try at it, as I can't seem to get it back"...by that point, I could have cut my whole dam hand off just to get out of there, so I put it back myself. I could go on, but won't. Sorry to hear about your shoulder, I sucks to have botched work done on your body...but hey, it was free!

Posted by: nephron---------------------

Quote:

The only cure our system has for serious cancer cases is dirt.

You guys are busting me up. I laughed out loud on that one.

JTT--freakin' hilarious.

Posted by: Tony Eeds---------------------

I didn’t mean to go off and leave y’all for soooo long, but sometimes it takes a while for the ideas to gel.

It is interesting to note that y’all north of the border can have a discussion about nationalism without it degenerating into a mud slinging contest. Down here, in the good ol’ USA, I can’t imagine that happening. Down here we seem to have perfected the art of second guessing every decision ever made.

Clinton spends 8 years tying the arms of every intelligence agency that we have (with big Democratic support) and now the Dems are trying to blame it on Bush, because he OBVIOUSLY knew something was going to happen on 9/11 ... Go figure.

Now the Dems want to give a $400 refund to every taxpayer in America that didn’t pay any income tax!?!?!?!?!?!

Maybe it is our barroom nature. We swagger a bit for sure, but I suspect that some of it is because we are a very young nation that is still trying to develop a sense of place in the world. Most countries (at least the polls) hate what we are but want everything we have. Is it possible to have the best of both worlds? I don’t think so. As somebody stated, we are the only remaining superpower and I, for one, am damn glad it is us. It scares me to think what might have happened if it had been some other country.

Canadian support has been a big factor in our success and with the exception of the comments made about Iraq, I think continues to be strong. We are too close in proximity to not have to learn how to get along. We have a symbiotic relationship between our two countries that will not go away and cannot be changed by a few ill thought remarks.

Maybe it is true that there is just too much money floating around here in the US. Everybody is being broken up into ever smaller groups and the most politically correct groups are being pandered too already in preparation for the upcoming TWO YEAR run for the White House. Some days the process makes me sick ...

Anyway back to Canada ... I have visited parts of 4 provinces and I must say that all-in-all I enjoyed my stays. Quebec and their French “attitudes” are kind of a pain in the butt, but I chalk that up to the dying wiggles of a society that has been passed by and isn’t willing grow with the times. It is not the people, it is the politicians that won’t change.

It is interesting to read about the disparity about tax revenue redistribution. I never knew it existed in Canada, but like most societies, the hinderlands often support the mother ship. That was the very first thing that pissed off the British subjects in America prior to the revolution. It would not be called redistribution, if it wasn’t collected in on locale only to be wasted in another.

I also can’t make heads or tails out of your system of government. We may not like ours, but we are stuck with it for 4 years at a time. There seems to be a new PM, or threats about votes of no confidence, etc. every few months (England and Israel, to name two). Canada has seemed very stable in contrast, except for Quebec yelling every now and again. I guess your system seems even more disconnected from the average voters than ours does (if that is possible). At least it seams that way based upon the comments in this thread about how Ontario and Quebec control both houses of govt.

Regarding healthcare, your comments scare me, as every politician on the left here in America is telling us how "wonderful" the Canadian health system is.

I have many times dreamed of traveling through Canada and had a wonderful time driving across the most northern roads I could find from Sault Ste Marie to Ottawa and Montreal before entering the US again. It was beautiful, but I darn sure checked my gas gauge as I left every town I came too. Ottawa is a very charming town and the early Sept day I visited, full of urban life. I have to say though, from someone that likes warm weather, it stays cold there too long for this southern boy.

A bit off track for the thread, but I want to ...
Float the Nahanni River from Rabbitkettle Hot Springs to Lindberg's Landing, which includes Virginia Falls. See Nahanni River Adventures
Ride the length of the Canol Road. See Arctic Motorcycle Tours and Rentals
Canoe down the Moose River to Moosonee on James Bay and ride the Polar Bear Express back to civilization.

Maybe y'all should put together a cross culture north of the border ride. It is only 14 hours from Dallas to Minneapolis St. Paul (dang, I LOVE pay at the pump) and about 6 more to Thunder Bay. That is about the closest place to us ... :flame: That is about the same distance as Reno.

Posted by: Chili---------------------

Tony, I work in the Canadian Health Care System and I can tell you first hand it is a sick and dying system. While many Provincial governments try to refute it the system has become a two tiered system where those who can pay have the ability to jump the queue and get treated at private clinics. When I blew my knee out the last time playing hockey the Ortho Doc wanted to do a scope my choices were I enter the queue and wait approx 9-12 months or if I had $1500 he could do it the next day in his private clinic. The small town of Grafton N.D. has a full service clinic that thrives on Canadian $ for those who don't want to wait 9-11 months for an MRI or 12 months for a knee scope. In the City of 700,000 I live in we have very ill cardiac patients being flown to Ontario for treatment because the system doesn't pay enough for our City to keep enough qualified Cardiologists on staff. The hospital I work in is continually forced to either close beds or force overtime on nursing staff due to a lack of available nurses. We have similar situations with a lack of Family Physicians, Anaesthetists, and Respiratory Therapists.

On a more positive note if there was some interest I'd be more than willing to arrange a DRN ride at one of two local MX tracks here near the border that would be about 6-7 hours north of Minneapolis.

Posted by: Tony Eeds---------------------

Quote:

Originally posted by Chili
On a more positive note if there was some interest I'd be more than willing to arrange a DRN ride at one of two local MX tracks here near the border that would be about 6-7 hours north of Minneapolis.

Let's see ... I could get Gene and John before heading out. Brian, Justin, Jay, and Derek in OK. Lou and Jamie in KC MO and Bruce in IA along the way ... nephron could swing across 70 and meet us in KC MO ... Randy could swing up to Eddie's in St Louis and then on to Chi town and we could get a real down and dirty crew then.

Your coming down to Dirtweek correct? Let's talk about next June or so (right after school is out) ... never too early to think about opportunities. :thumb:

Are their any good logging areas with fire roads etc.?

Posted by: Chili---------------------

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony Eeds
Your coming down to Dirtweek correct? Let's talk about next June or so (right after school is out) ... never too early to think about opportunities. :thumb:

Are their any good logging areas with fire roads etc.?

We will be at Dirtweek. As far as the logging areas we are pretty much a MX only type family so I will do some research on off road opportunities. There is one place that we used to go to alot that would be perfect it has some fire roads, a few smaller gravel pits and miles and miles of trails that are primarily used in the winter for snowmobiles. this area would add about another hour to the trek though since you would basically becoming all the way up to Winnipeg and venturing out from there. I know there was a group of locals trying to start up a Harescrambles series here so I'll try to find some info about where they set up the loops etc.

Posted by: JTT---------------------

Chili, when I mentioned 8-12 months, that was to see the Ortho specialist, not to actually get a scope (only to get an appointment to get an appointment, as GPs don't prescirbe surgerys). After seeing the Ortho guy in 8-12 months, I would then have a 24 month wait to have the actual scope done...yes, that's three years from the time of accident. They don't even mention "fee for service" clinics, that would be considered "taboo". There are none here anyways and the nearest would likely be Boston (10-12 hr drive).

Enough snivelling though

Great idea to have an "international" ride weekend, sadly it would take me a week of driving just to get there :whiner: ...what did I say about this place being too big?

Posted by: SpeedyManiac---------------------

Here's my take on it all:
While Canada is one country, it is not one culture, or even people with one common link- being Canadian. In the US, everyone (for the most part) is an American first, and whereever else they came from second. In Canada, everyone seems to be _______ (insert other nationality) first, and Canadian if they feel like it (ie. Need money from the government). Anyways, there is a HUGE difference from the East to the West. I was recentely in Ottawa for a band trip, and the price of gas was 57.9 cents/litre. In Edmonton, Alberta (where much of the oil is refined) the price of gas is around 80 cents per litre. In Edmonton the gas has to be shipped across the street, in Ottawa the gas has to be shipped around 2000 miles. The politicians don't think there's a problem with gas prices because in the east (Ontario atleast) gas is still fairly cheap. Also, I found in Ottawa that everything (except souvenirs) is either free or extremely cheap. They have concerts on parliament hill for $6! For big bands like 'The Bare Naked Ladies,' Avril Lavigne, etc. At Rideau Hall the concerts are free. Here concerts cost a lot. The only time Ottawa cares about the West is when they need to tax more, but they never spend any money over here. I personally wouldn't mind if BC and Alberta (and maybe saskatchewan) separated and became their own country. Oh yeah, about the mad cow, they found one cow out of approx. 3 million cows in Canada. There should actually be three cows, because mad cow disease occurs naturally in 1 out of every 1 million cows.
Quite frankly, the West gets screwed over by the East. ANd where I live, I get screwed over by my own province too.

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