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overheating

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Posted by: red---------------------

I was browsing the forum and found Luv2Ride had a similar problem to mine yet couldn't determine how he resolved this. I have a 2001 kdx220 that overheats and loses coolant in the radiator during technical riding conditions in cool weather. Back at the bike shop all cooling system checks were performed and passed flawlessly. I tore the top end off and inspected the system for blockage and didn't notice any problems. Circulation appears to be good. It was recommended that I replace the Devol rad guards with the stock ones and try silkolene with water wetter to see if that helps. I've done so and have yet to try this out but I'm still pretty puzzled.
My riding partner has a 2000 kdx200 with the Devol guards and a 50/50 mix. He's never had this problem in the same terrain. In one day of riding with him I had to top off the radiator 3 times.
I noticed that Luv2Ride had the same bike as mine so that made me ponder whether this is a trait of this model or what??? I'm getting to my wits end here. Please help.
Just revving the bike in the driveway and setting the idle high on a cool day with the radiator fully exposed will cause the reservoir to percolate and fill after 5-10 minutes eventually draining coolant (silkolene/water wetter) out the vent tube. I figure this might be normal due to no air flow through the system but could I be wrong?
If it helps, here's what's on the bike:
I'm running a 42 pilot, 1173 needle in 2nd from top and a 150 main below 1000ft, 50-60 degree temp, fairly humid. FMF torque pipe, turbinecore 2, and boyesen reeds are on the bike as well. The plug looks slightly on the rich side.
It's a rainy day in mudville.



Posted by: Luv2Ride---------------------

red:

I sure know how frustrating this can be. Here is what I did, should help you too even though you are in a different climate. I found that by removing the Devol guards and replacing the factory plastic guards (they provide the best velocity of air across the radiators) worked well along with the mixture of coolant that I found worked best for me. I ended up using half a bottle of water wetter mixed with distilled water. I also found another product offered by either prestone or penske and I think it is called coolant conditioner. This stuff cost about half of what water wetter does and it works just as well if not better - I used the same mixture as with the water wetter. The key to the cooling systems on these bikes is finding what mixture works best at your climate and also making certain that there is no air in the system. You can bleed the air from the system by loosening the screw on the top of the cylinder head until coolant comes out consistently then re-tighten the screw (not too tight). The bike should not be running when you do this. I also tap on all the hoses to be sure there is no air stuck inside of them, when the screw is loose - of course.

Don't forget that when the temperature is low you should use anti-freeze in the mixture because water wetter and the coolant conditioner that I mentioned only offer anti-corrosive and lubricating properties and will not protect you from freezing temperatures.

Good luck and I hope that this helps.

Aloha,

Scot

------------------
'01 KDX220r
Ride it Hard and Fast!


Posted by: Luv2Ride---------------------

I almost forgot to ask what premix oil you are using and at what ratio. I was told by Jeff Fredette that if the oil (usually synthetic) supports a ratio of 40:1 or 50:1 this will aid in the excessive heating due to gas being able to dissipate heat better than oil. Also I personally believe that friction is reduced by a synthetic premix as well.

------------------
'01 KDX220r
Ride it Hard and Fast!


Posted by: red---------------------

Scot-
Thanks for the speedy reply. I'll try it out with the cooling mixture I've got and try a different pre-mix. I'm running the factory spec 32:1 with a synthetic. Did you have to re-jet when you increased your fuel ratio?
Steve


Posted by: Luv2Ride---------------------

red:

Being at sea level here in Hawaii, no I never had to rejet. Believe it or not I have been very lucky with that. I thought that it would be a nightmare to get dialed in but the plug had always read mocha brown since I purchased the bike new. The only thing that I had to do when I changed the ratio was adjust my air mixture screw about 3/8-1/2 turn to allow more air. After every ride I check the plug and it still reads fine. I am using Bel Ray H1R synthetic running anywhere from 44:1 to 50:1 depending on how I feel when I pour the oil into my little measuring device. Hahaha. One thing about this oil though, it is gummy. I rebuilt my top end about 4-6 weeks after buying the bike because of the 220 piston being known to self destruct and while I was in there I cleaned everything up real well and I was shocked at how much carbon the power valves had accumulated. This is fine by me, I rather take the bike apart every now and then to remove carbon and possibly replace the rings then have to possibly replace the piston and rings and maybe even hone the cylinder every year. Just my thoughts is all.

By the way, have you considered swapping the factory piston for the Wiseco yet? I would do it if I were you. Just talk with Jeff Fredette and he will hook you up with the piston kit (includes piston, rings, pin and circlips) and required gaskets. Jeff is a great guy, if you have any questions or concerns just ask him and he will be more than happy to help out. I noticed that my bike revs a little quicker, is snappier and has a little meaner sound (idle particularly) now that I have the Wiseco. I am also riding with a peace of mind now that I don't have to worry about being a statistic.

I hope this helps.

Aloha

------------------
'01 KDX220r
Ride it Hard and Fast!


Posted by: Ede---------------------

One possible reason when your bike gets to hot is a spark-plug which is too hot.

I don’t know if this is the real problem but try to use a cooler spark plug (higher number) and the bike should be cooler.


------------------
Ede
KDX200SR (94)


Posted by: Sage---------------------

I have the same problem w/ my 99 220. if I fill the rad to the top it spits out the first 3/4 to 1" of water and then settles, I just let it settle and don't have a problem anymore. the bike dosent overheat it just dosent like that 3/4 to 1" of water at the top. Maybe it needs room to expand? I don't use the overflow bottle and after it takes it set it stays there till the next time I change it or pull the top end or ????

------------------
Sage Wilkinson, KDX Link 1


Posted by: skagracer---------------------

hi I have a 2003 kdx 220 just bought it got a couple of rides on it and have the same problem with over heating lossing coolant etc . only happens on tight tree runs and hard pulls moving slow so lack of air going thru rads coolant mixs in 50/50 i,m on moyul sin 50/1 getting good at 142 we ride in the rockys mostly tight trees so this problem for me has,t to be fixed any one got more help reply thks


Posted by: Braahp---------------------

I have a 01 200 that overheated just about every time I rode. I tried everything to no avail. Water Wetter.........Engine Ice............a 20/80 mix antifreeze......all still overheated. I finally found the solution. Get a product called Evans NPG+. http://www.evanscooling.com/main27.htm Replaces coolant mix altogether. I have NEVER overheated since.


Posted by: Robcolo---------------------

Listen to what Braahp just said. You have 3 choices to avoid constant overheating with the 220s. Don't ride the bike, Buy larger radiators [about $400] or install the Evans NPG+. Follow their directions exactly & get every last drop of water out of your cooling system before installing the NPG. Since it expands more than does water, only put about 1 oz of it into the coolant overflow tank before you ride. If you ride a stock 220 at very low altitude and where there's lots of humidity to suck the heat out of your radiators, you may get by with some of the other products, but bring that bike up to Utah or the rockies with our thin dry air, it's guaranteed to boil. For some reason the 200s don't overheat and even Kawasaki can't tell us why --guess the cooling system just can't handle the extra 10% displacement --similar to KTMs 250 -300-380 engines. Same bottom ends, different cylinders & the 380s boil like crazy.


Posted by: skipro3---------------------

I'm also an Evans NPG+ user and it works fine in my 220 as well. Since this product REQUIRES that all water be removed from your system, here is what I did: disconnect the hose at the water pump. Remove the radiator cap. Connect the wet / dry shop vac to the water pump and hose. Suck that baby dry and then let the vac run a bit for the air to finish drying it out. It took a couple of rides to burp all the air out of the system, but now I never vent fluid and that's with the overflow can removed too.


Posted by: bcVulcan---------------------

My 220 started overheating today. It's never done that before. Last week, a coolant hose came loose and it got really hot before I realized I had a problem. Could I have done any damage that is causing it to overheat now? I have no leakes. It just perculates into the resevoir. The third time it did it today, (in very tight and slow conditions), the radiator was about3/4" low.


Posted by: BRYDEN1---------------------

If you have a 220 and you ride slow technical sections, stop wasting your time and get the evans npg+. Many people on this forum have have solved their problems using it. I went on one ride with outrgus and I boiled my bike three times. He used evans and never boiled, I didn't and my bike smelled all day long. After putting it in I haven't had a problem since. After a long slow climb that I used to overheat on, I can still hold onto the hoses for 3-5 seconds. One added bonus is that you can run your cooling system at a lower pressure. Last ride out a big sharp rock jumped out and smacked my waterpump cover hard enough to shift the cover and break the upper dowel out of the case. I managed to slow the leak to a trickle under pressure. With the cap half off it slowed to an occasional drip. I rode the 30-40 km back to the truck low on coolant with no problems. Evans isn't cheap but I value my riding time way more than the price of a Gallon.


Posted by: bcVulcan---------------------

That's about what I've decided. I was just wondering what caused it to do this all of a sudden.


Posted by: fundgh---------------------

I started a new thread about overheating, but finally found this one! I overheated my 220 on its first ride last weekend, and it was on a slow technical long uphill. This thread tells me this is not uncommon. I have not switched coolant yet, but will. Do I have to order Evans, or is it sold at MC shops? Should I remove the Devol Guards, or take a Dremmel to them?


Posted by: BRYDEN1---------------------

Leave the guards alone. Put in the EVANS.


Posted by: outrgus---------------------

I have been praising the evans coolant for many years now , work great, little to no pressure in your system, and NO RUST, i also think by using the evans coolant my top end last longer . Just buy some and your heating problems will no longer be a problem.


Posted by: TriniG---------------------

There is another solution to overheating. I installed on my 220 two computer fans wired into my high beam light and attached to my left side radiators (no room on the right side unless I relocate the coolant overflow container). Choose the highest amperage fan you can get in the 4 inch size. The higher the amps the faster the spin of the fan. This has reduced the frequency off boil overs. low speed difficult riding. Still allows airflow over the radiator.


Posted by: TCOX---------------------

My 01 200 has never been a problem, but my 04 220 always boiled over until I used Evans NPG+. They also sell a PREP product to help get all the water out of your cooling system. This is a waterless cooling product. Zip Ty Racing also sells a waterless coolant produced by Evans. The Zip Ty product may be a little cheaper because it comes in onehalf gallon, where the Evans product is a gallon. Since this is a waterless product and if you lose your coolant out on the trail, you can't (shouldn't) put water into the cooling system. If you read up on the Evans product it will tell you why.


Posted by: Mr.Green---------------------

Do the guys from Calgary know where I can get some Evan's cooling?


Posted by: Canadian Dave---------------------

red,

Over heating is often the result of a lean condition. The incoming charge of fuel draws heat from the piston, not enough fuel therefore = high piston/engine temps. Given the age of your bike its likely safe to rule out a mechanical problem causing an air leak which could result in a lean condition so lets look at your jetting. Let’s start with our fuel. Changing the pre-mix ratio from 30:1 to 40:1, for example, increases the amount of fuel thus richening the mixture reducing heat. Given you are running a synthetic oil I would have a look at the oil manufactures recommendations for an indication of what ratio it was intended to support. Personally I run 42:1 with good results. Once you decide on a ratio try fine tuning your jetting. Boyesen reeds will make your engine run leaner on the bottom and richer on the top therefore from the jetting you have indicated I would start by richening your pilot circuit. Richen your airscrew (turn it in) and see if that helps. I’m guessing you’ll find it works best at around .75 turns out. If you are still not happy with the results try changing the pilot jet from a 42 to a 45 and play with your airscrew again this time you’ll likely need to lean the pilot screw/ turn it out. Rather than looking at your plug to check your jetting at lower throttle setting (the pilot jet has the greatest affect at lower throttle setting) go by feel. Cylinder scavenging is poor at lower rpms ( I’m assuming you are running at lower rpms in technical conditions were you are overheating) so a plug reading isn’t very useful when file tuning here.

David


Posted by: BRYDEN1---------------------

There is a guy just outside of Edmonton that is a Evans dealer.http://eee.evanscooling.com/html/dealer1.htm
Look under the canadian dealers.


Posted by: Mr.Green---------------------

Thankyou, I tried to send a personal message to you to ask where I could buy some, but it said I didn't have sufficient privilages.Thanks again.


Posted by: Old Man Time---------------------

I took my 05 220 out on a very Technical slow steep ride last Saturday. My jetting was not right and I had no low end at all. Not a good thing in steep slow areas. I had to rev the bike all the time to get the power band so I had enough power to climb. Needless to say all this reving and slipping the clutch heated the oil up which heated the coolant up and I ended up over heating and spewing out quite a bit of coolant. With that kind of clutch abuse any bike would have over heated.

After reading this thread I hope I don't run into the same problems you have. It seems the only way I have been able to give my bike some bottom end pull is to lean the slow jet circuit. I am already down to #42 Slow Jet with the needle on the #1 clip and a #145 main. And it acts like it would do better with a #40 slow jet, it still has a hesitation down low. Airbox lid removed, Boyseen power reeds and FMF torque desert pipe. The bike still hesitates a little down low but nothing like it did when I was rich in the idle circuit. Then it simply did not have any low end nada (not an exageration).

I run a 40:1 mix (sometimes 50:1 mc1). The bike never overheats when I am abusing it in the desert. I hope I was right about clutch abuse causing it to over heat in the moutains. I don't like the idea of evans simply because if you lose it on the trail due to a broken hose or whatever, even if you fix the problem your not to mix it with water. I guess you can flush your system and then put water in it while on the trail.

But I still may become an Evans fan if I find in the future my bike does overheat. Also does not Evans mask a possibly more serious problem? When a bike overheats its telling you something ain't right. Evens does not boil over because it must reach a much higher temp to boil in the first place. Your bike may be running hotter than it should and you would never know. At least that is one arguement I have read against it. I don't have a firm conviction on this due to the fact that I have not tried it or investigated it enough to know what is true. Sounds like those who have tried it are convinced.


Posted by: Green Hornet---------------------

Posted by OLD MAN TIME:

After reading this thread I hope I don't run into the same problems you have. It seems the only way I have been able to give my bike some bottom end pull is to lean the slow jet circuit. I am already down to #42 Slow Jet with the needle on the #1 clip and a #145 main. And it acts like it would do better with a #40 slow jet, it still has a hesitation down low. Airbox lid removed, Boyseen power reeds and FMF torque desert pipe. The bike still hesitates a little down low but nothing like it did when I was rich in the idle circuit. Then it simply did not have any low end nada (not an exageration).


Did you adjust the air mixture screw???Try turning out and in till you get a response you like. Sounds like fine tuning it to me


Posted by: KelvinKDX---------------------

Several years ago i had trouble with my kdx200 (EG225) overheating - i switched to the Evans coolant and have not had a problem since.


Posted by: bake---------------------

Mine just overheated yesterday on a long slow technical climb, I stoped to let it cool then took the lead and got some air past the rad. It seemed to help but I can't always go fast in a section.


Posted by: TriniG---------------------

I had overheating probs too. I ride in a hot tropical environment. I put Wetter Water and installed two computer fans on the left radiator that are wired into my high beam light so that at a glance I can see that they are on. On slow rides I just switch to high beam, hey presto, fans on. Haven't boiled over since.
1998 KDX220 (Japan Model)


Posted by: Old Man Time---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Hornet
Posted by OLD MAN TIME:

After reading this thread I hope I don't run into the same problems you have. It seems the only way I have been able to give my bike some bottom end pull is to lean the slow jet circuit. I am already down to #42 Slow Jet with the needle on the #1 clip and a #145 main. And it acts like it would do better with a #40 slow jet, it still has a hesitation down low. Airbox lid removed, Boyseen power reeds and FMF torque desert pipe. The bike still hesitates a little down low but nothing like it did when I was rich in the idle circuit. Then it simply did not have any low end nada (not an exageration).


Did you adjust the air mixture screw???Try turning out and in till you get a response you like. Sounds like fine tuning it to me


The more I turned the air mix out the worse the low end got. When I tried a #45 slow jet the low end was bad and air adjustment screw had little to no effect.

The bike is 4 weeks old and it has never had a low end power. You were either on the pipe or killing the engine on any kind of steep hill. So naturally you would have to work the clutch so much in the tight steep stuff that the bike had no choice but to overheat.

Before our ride Saturday 8/20/05 we pulled the power valve rod cover. From the factory they never torqued the nut on the end of the power rod. In other words the power valve was not working. I had tremendous top end but zero low end. The nut was not even finger tight. Had I gone on that ride with out checking the power valve Kawasaki would have been replacing a clutch and who knows what else when the rod dropped down onto the clutch.

We adjusted the power valve timing and tightened the nut and miracle of miracles I now have decent low end. So we set out thinking all was well and the bike would be able to handle anything we threw at it. In the tight steep technical stuff it still over heats.

What angers me the most is the fact that the engine may not of had this over heating problem if it would not have been overheated the first. And that was Kawasakis fault due to the power valve not working forcing the clutch abuse which super heated the engine oil.

So now I have to deal with the same problem that many are having on here. KDX220's simply have rotton cooling systems for that displacement of engine. Obviously the 200's are running right on the edge of the cooling systems abilities.

First I am going to try Canadian Daves suggestion and try to jet the bike cooler. Now that I have low end compression (which equals power) I will go back to the #45 pilot and see if it helps cooling. If that does not work I may try Evans or take the bike back to Kawasaki since it is still under warrantee and make them deal with it.

Keep in mind that it will climb hills and never over heat as long as you are able to use second gear and keep the speed up. But in the nasty steep Technical areas it over heats really fast.

Evans may void my warrantee so I have make sure before I use it. Evan cannot even boil until about 350+ degrees which means you could run your bike at 340 degrees all day and not know it. But would that be detrimental to the bike? I'm not sure.


Posted by: BRush---------------------

Quote:

Also does not Evans mask a possibly more serious problem? When a bike overheats its telling you something ain't right. Evens does not boil over because it must reach a much higher temp to boil in the first place. Your bike may be running hotter than it should and you would never know.



Not necessarily. Any bike running a water / anti-freeze mix can boil the coolant. Hot weather + low speeds + an extended session of wringing the crap out of the motor in a technical section where the bike is not moving or moving slowly will usually do it. Water wetter + distilled water is one way to go. This has the most heat capacity - meaning a given quantity of heat energy will raise the temp of a given quantity of coolant the least. Your engine will be the coolest with this mixture right up until it boils. That's the rub, because water has the lowest boiling point. Water wetter& just water works pretty well. I ran this mix in my KDX for a long time and it boiled less than my 50/50 ethylene glycol/water mix. But it did still boil occasionally under severe abuse in hot weather. Typical anti-freeze mixes ( 50/50 ethylene glycol/water) or something like Engine Ice ( propylene glycol/ deionized water mix) have less heat capacity, but higher boiling points. Engine ice strikes a decent balance and I've run this in my KTM enduro bike for two seasons, but at a recent hot weather enduro there was a series of long hard uphills followed by a highly technical slow speed section. The engine ice boiled over with such force that I lost about half my coolant in just a couple of minutes. If you are trail riding, you can just take a break and let things cool down (assuming you have a catch bottle like the KDX - my KTM does not). That's a bad option in an enduro. That was the last straw for me so I've just recently switched to Evans NPG-R coolant which has no water in it and a phenomenally high boiling point. The tradeoff of course, is that your engine runs hotter with this stuff - but not as hot as when you boil out half your water-based coolant and have to finish the last 15 miles on a bike running a lot less coolant that it was designed for. The enduro yesterday was the first Evans try out. It had a lot of long uphills and it was hot. No boil over, so far so good. Engine seems to run ok.


Posted by: John Harris---------------------

Thumper Racing markets an aftermarket coolant overflow bottle for KTM that helps with part of the problem. I only ride KDX but I understand from KTM riders that it works well and we have plenty of heat lately! Cheers John Harris


Posted by: BRYDEN1---------------------

My two season experience with EVANS has only been positive. The one thing I have noticed is that I never feel the heat of the engine on my legs anymore. Before the evans, I always new when she was close to boiling because I could feel it. With the Evans, I have never felt it get hot yet. This isn't very scientific, but It's proof enough for me. IMHO the EVANS is the way to go. It solved all my overheating problems.
As for the idea that the high boiling point could mask other problems, well yes, that is true. No product is Idiot proof, some may only be more idiot resistant than others.


Posted by: yotamotive---------------------

I too had a 2003 220 that overheated during slow moving high output situations. I looked into EVANS NPG and think I may have found a cheaper easier to acquire product. Per EVANS web site their product is 99% propylene glycol and 1% additives with a boiling point of 369 degrees Fahrenheit. Sierra Antifreeze is (per it's MSDS, material saftey data sheet) 96% propylene glycol, 3% water, and 1% additives with a boiling point of 365 degrees Fahrenheit. You can buy Sierra at your local autoparts store for less than ten bucks. The only difference being the 3% water resulting in the 4 degree boiling point difference which seems to me to be negligible compared to conventional 50/50 water/ethylene glycol with a much lower boiling point (264 degrees F). Boilover is a result of cylinder wall temperatures reaching the boiling point of the coolant. Once boiling begins a small pocked of air is created on the backside of the cylinder wall where the coolant resides. The lack of coolant in this area causes even more heat to be created because the coolant can no longer remove the heat from that spot due to lack of contact. So this small problem begins to create a larger chain reaction finally resulting in the boilover we all know too well. The idea behind products like EVANS and Sierra is by using only propylene glycol it increase the boiling temperature thus eliminating boilovers. An engine that runs hotter is not necessarily a bad thing, temperature differences (like during a boilover: air pockets-hot, coolant-cold) cause engine damage. Most important is that an engine remains at a constant (not necessarily low) temperature throughout, within reason of course. Thats the way I understand it at least. I currently use Sierra and it works great, no more boilovers. Just my .02. Hope I have helped a little..............


Posted by: COMBEN---------------------

have you tried jet washing the radiators from the reverse side, most people will jet wash from the front...try from the back of the back forwards...I do this after every ride and you will be amazed at the crap that comes out of the rad's.



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