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Amsoil = Spooge?

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Posted by: KTM Mike---------------------

Has anyone been using Amsoil premix oil and found it results in excess spooge?

I started using it this spring..and have been major spoogie on my 00 KTM300EXC.  

At about the same time i started with the Amsoil, i started messing with jetting - to no avail on the spooge factor...bike runs fine and clean but the spooge is so bad it drips on the rear brake rotor - makes for poor braking action!  I have done tons of research here on DRN and elsewhere, running pretty much recommended specs on jetting...yet still spooge! Oh i am running premix at 40 to 1.

so - is it the oil...or is it the jetting?

 

 


Posted by: Rich Rohrich---------------------

The jetting.


Posted by: KTM Mike---------------------

yeah Rich...i was afraid someone would say that!  :whiner:

 Man I have done all the DDK, CEK bla bla bla messing I think I can tolerate!  I have been trying to be conservative though with the jetting  (lost a top end moving to quick with it last summer!), so maybe i gotta go back with the good ole #7 slide (it was that slide that I seized with inspite of what I thought was otherwise fat jetting!)

OK...someone else jump in and tell me its the oil so i feel better!

 


Posted by: FritoBandito---------------------

It is always the jetting that causes the problem, in my opinion.


Posted by: Rich Rohrich---------------------

It's the OIL. You mixed it in an engine that is jetted poorly


Posted by: Moto Squid---------------------

i use amsoil at 32:1 and it burns nice and clean :thumb:


Posted by: Jaybird---------------------

Mike,
Keep in mind that jetting is not a thing you can just accomplish and be done with. The need for jetting changes come and go like the weather....and WITH the weather.
Always be leary of the tuning abilities of a person who gives you specific jetting specs. He probably has less than a clue.

And remember also that a little spooge isn't always a bad thing, it just means you aren't on the ragged edge of lean. And if you don't plan on changing your jetting on a continued basis when conditions dictate the need, it is better to be a bit spoogy, imo.


Posted by: jmics19067---------------------

It could be your gas

actually I am surprised Rich didnt jump on that

To plaguerize Rich.

" For whatever reason splooge is the incomplete burning of your fuel . The most common cause is poor jetting."

I would venture to say that if you are loosing your brakes because of splooge your jetting is pretty far off and not just a poor gas quality problem.


Posted by: Patman---------------------

BTW which Amsoil premix oil are you using? The 100:1 stuff or the Series 2000 Premix? My pumpkin spooged with any premix until I fixed the exhaust issue that all 360's had and got the jetting cleaned up. Then pretty much any good synthetic gave me the same results. I ran Series 2000 in pump premium at 50:1 with no issues at all and still use the Series 2000 at 80:1 in VP MR2 in my Montesa. Lots of folks do try to use the 100:1 oil because it's less expensive but if you read their product info it's pretty specific that it's for lawn equipment etc...


Posted by: fishhead---------------------

Most of the guys I ride with here who ride tight woods with a 00 vintage 300's are running a cek-3 or 4 with a 42 pilot + or - one size with a 172 to 178 main depending on temp and altitude. other combos includea ddk-2-3 or dck-2-3 with similar pilots and perhaps a size lower main with the d series taper. If you run a 7 slide go to _ _ J series needles. a dcj-2 with a 7 slide and a 42 pilot should get you close. A dck-2 with a 6 slide is nearly identical. If you run more open stuff or sand a 1/2 to full clip richer on the needle and larger mains will be safer. If you want more hit try a the cek-5. Since this is tight woods the throttle is not held open for long at all.

I'm curious how close this is to the package that you squeaked your top end with and what the trail and weather conditions were.

Bottom line is: If your combustion temps are not high enough to burn the oil you get spooge. The most common causes of low combustion temps are rich jetting, poor/wrong fuel and plonking along.


Posted by: KTM Mike---------------------

Hey thanks for all the replies guys!  (I dunno about Rich though....clearly I didnt mix the oil in the engine...i mixed it in the gas can )

Ok...on the Oil - its the Series 2000 stuff (not the lawnmower stuff!).

  On topic of gas - i have been running pump gas - 93 octane - more often then not from a BP station.  Last year I typically ran a 50/50 mix of pump 93 and pump 110 - but I can no longer get the 110 locally (I live about 1/2 between nowhere and nowhere else) - plus I was hoping to avoid the cost of the high octane stuff (I know...dont be so cheap!)

Regarding the jetting when i trashed a top end last year:

#7 slide, 185 Main, 45 Pilot, A/s 1 3/4 out, R1466N needle, clip 4th up from bottom.

I must admit - top end went on an extended WFO road section (I was makin up lost time!) - i was trying to roll off periodically, etc, but earilier in that day I must admit the bike just was not pulling on top like it normally did -   As i recall weather was humid, maybe low to mid 80s .  After this happened, i went back to the #6, even tried a NOZH so i had a "stock" base line.  After a fair bit of messing around ended essentially as listed above, except #6 slide.  That was way fat down low (huge fowling issues when i rode pokey slow with the kids)

My jetting currently is:

#6 slide 185 Main, 42 Pilot, A/s 1 3/4 out, CEJ Needle, clip 3rd from bottom.

I had bought 2 other needles in addition to the CEJ (the choice of needles I went with  was based in part on either recommendation from you fishhead, or jame dean over on the holeshot site) (unfortunately I dont recall exactly which ones...but two cxx series - so i think one was the CEJ the other CEL (maybe CEK? - I will check out tomorrow night), and I think the last one was a DDJ ( I wanted a DDK but Sudco was out of stock).  to me ALL felt lean, particularily 1/2 throttle and up. - (I had taken notes...which since have disappeared oops!), I tried plug reads but found no matter what i got all white plugs and further research here on DRN indicated that was not uncommon).  With the jetting set as listed above, bike overall "feels" OK.  Nice smooth power, feels a tiny bit fat down low, and ironically, almost lean again 1/2 throttle and above.  I wonder if it is less that it is actually lean there, but more that these needles made for less hit (?). 

I ride in Michigan...so typically under say...500 to 1000 feet in elevation, temps more recently up 70s to low 80s, occasionally mid 80s.  Most riding I do is tighter woods, some faster (for me at least!) wood on occasion.  I have spent a fair bit of time plonkin along with my kids as well - though I dont necessarily want to set the bike up solely based on that.

I have been reluctant to move down from the 185 main as I had seized with on before...maybe I need to give that a go...or do i go back to the #7 -  (perhaps staying with the CEJ as Fishhead suggested ? I am riding tomorrow night after work, and moved my clip up one notch (4 up from bottom), and on Saturday might try that #7 again (or perhaps other suggestions here)??  I think the gist of it all...i need to buy a dozen plugs, and play around...problem is not enoght time in the day!

thanks again...LMK any other suggestions other than going to a 4 stroke!

 


Posted by: fishhead---------------------

A cej-3 with a 6 sounds a bit rich on the bottom but it will be as lean as a nozh-1 in the mid section. You can probably balance the jetting a little better and still be safe.

With a 7 slide I would start with the ddj-3 with a 42 or 45 pilot and a 175 or 178 main but it will be safer to work down a step at a time on the mains. for slow speed stuff the leaner pilot might the best choice perhaps a 40 will be in order. don't be afraid to drop the needle a clip position and note the results

If the 1466n is a honda needle it is a lot richer on the straight section than the ddj but the L1 dimension is quite a bit longer which will make the midsection of the throttle opening quite a bit leaner. I pefer the ddk and dck needles for most of my stuff. Rich to lean dck-3, ddk-3 dck-2, ddk-2 in 1/2 clip increments with a 6.5 slide. Nothing special about the 6.5 it what the bike came with. I use the cek and cej needles or their honda equivelents for specific purposes.

Happy jetting and let us know how it goes :thumb:


Posted by: MWEISSEN---------------------

Mike, take a look at James Dean's jetting spreadsheet (you can get it at Thumpertalk). It's invaluable in looking at your jetting and the effect of changes.

I evaluated some of your settings, and I'd say you're pretty lean in the 1/4 to 1/2 throttle range and fat on the very bottom and on top. I have to qualify that in that I'm comparing that to my 250 jetting. Also the setting you had the problem with was very lean in the 1/4 to 1/2 throttle range.

This spreadsheet really allows me to fine tune my jetting with temperature changes as well, a thing we in Michigan have to deal with every year.


Posted by: MikeS---------------------

Since I am still an avid Amsoil 2000 user in 300. I will add a comment or 2.

Rich hit it on the head, Jetting and fuel type. Someone else mentioned the 300 as it can sometimes be ridden does not generate the heat needed for complete combustion. This is my case. I like running a gear hi in the trail and I am not very fast anymore. I get spooge. When I tweak the bike with VP C12 in the cooler temps or MR2 during the drier summer temps. I can get close to no spooge running fireroads and open trail. My son can take it out and do a few hot laps on our tight 1st/2nd gear HS track and the bike comes back with a dry silencer and most of my tire chewed up.

Goodluck.
These bikes can be jetted better. I agree that you are way fat on top. If you are lean 1/4-1/2 then power is off and you twist it into the fat part of the jetting to get going. I richened up the mid settings and lost the ping and gained loads of response.


Posted by: bclapham---------------------

after getting the JD jetting guide, its a good $20 well spent. I doubt the #7 slide siezed the bike though since it only effects in the 0-1/4 thottle position and there is also a bit of overlap with the needle width.


Posted by: skipro3---------------------

Quote:
top end went on an extended WFO road section (I was makin up lost time!) - i was trying to roll off periodically,

A slow throttle rolloff from full throttle will cause a lean condition and a major cause of seizing on an otherwise decent jetted bike if the oil fails. Did you say what brand oil you were using when it seized?


Posted by: KTM Mike---------------------

I rode about 65 miles this weekend with the clip moved up one notch.  Big improvement on the spooge factor - though still some - not enough to drip on the caliper like before though.  After the ride the plug looked 1/2 and 1/2!  One half was a light tan, the other half looked black!  I have been told I am a half  rider before - guess this is proof!

I agree i am still a tad rich down low, and a hair lean in the middle  (wish that description applied to me personally :confused: !).  but time constraints will prevent much messing with it for a week or two now.  If I am lean in the middle - what to do so I dont fatten it up down low any more?  Seems a larger pilot will go to fat for me, and the needles have just now gotten the bottom end cleaned up - or is it a different needle that is needed?

JDs jetting guide sounds like the ticket - is it an excell spreadsheet or something?  I should get it.

Oh -skippro3 - I was running Maxima Super M when I seized.  I am wondering if you are right...simply pushing to hard, momentary lean.... I now understand best to momentarily kill with kill switch keeping gas on.  Better yet, dont ride so stinkin slow in the tight stuff so I wont need to push so fast on the open stuff!

Thanks guys for all the comments.  Now I am off to the garage to install some wheel bearings and some new S-12's!


Posted by: MWEISSEN---------------------

Mike, yeah the jetting guide is an Excel spreadsheet. Anyone trying to jet their bike ought to have it.

I'm glad you've got things a little closer. You may want to take that main jet down and put your needle clip back and see what happens.


Posted by: MWEISSEN---------------------

Oh yeah. Mike, what is the stock needle that came in your bike? Was it an NOZG?


Posted by: fishhead---------------------

Quote:
Originally posted by KTM Mike
If I am lean in the middle - what to do so I dont fatten it up down low any more?  Seems a larger pilot will go to fat for me, and the needles have just now gotten the bottom end cleaned up - or is it a different needle that is needed?

JDs jetting guide sounds like the ticket - is it an excell spreadsheet or something?  I should get it.


Depends what you are running now. The d_ _ needles are leaner on the bottom and richer above 1/4 to 3/8 or so compared to c taper needles. By all means get the JDJetting guide. If you are running a cej-2 you are quite a bit leaner in the middle than I would run. A ddj-3 with a 7 slide will be cleaner on the bottom and richer in the mid section. If you are running a ddj-2 then a ddk-3 will be leaner on the bottom and richer in the mid section. The jetting guide allows you to plug these variables in including slide cutaway and pilot and main and see the effect on jetting. It's the best $29.95 you will spend and it's a bargain.


Posted by: RJ-KDX---------------------

Jetting would be the issue not the oil. Most of the 2 stroke pumpkins that I see in my area when riding are very spoogy. (Let me clarify here, this is a generalization(sp) not meant to slam on anyone or a certain bike.)

It could be these(riders in my area) have not jetted their bikes.

I made the switch to Amsoil S2000 about 1-1/2 years ago, re-jetted, and got rid of the spooge. IMO I believe it's a good synthetic oil. You should give it another try.

Good luck :thumb:


Posted by: KTM Mike---------------------

Mark - I think stock was NOZH - but i bought my bike used - it came with that R1466N in it.  Hey are you going to be at the Jackpine this weekend?  Assuming I get my bike together I will be.

Fishhead - time allowing I will try the DDJ (I have one - no DDK though).  Just to make sure I am following you - when you say DDJ-2, you are refering to the clip being in the second groove down from the top - right? 

Now...i gotta go straighten out my mess in the garage... so I can mess it up again tomorrow night!

 


Posted by: MWEISSEN---------------------

Mike, I'm seriously considering it. Are you riding Sunday, or Saturday? If I go, I'm riding on Saturday. Let me know, I'm riding solo and wouldn't mind hooking up with someone.

I'll look at some jetting with the James Dean jetting guide and PM you some stuff.


Posted by: Rich Rohrich---------------------

I'll add another thumbs up for the JD jetting guide. I've been doing this stuff a long time but I immediately felt it was well worth the money. JD put an enormous amount of time and effort into the guide, and it shows.

Cheapest performance mod you'll probably ever buy. Everyone should have it .


Posted by: bclapham---------------------

Quote:
Originally posted by KTM Mike
- it came with that R1466N in it.&nbsp


that needle is very narrow, i will be that might be where the problem making the bike rich between 1/8-1/4 throttle??????


Posted by: fishhead---------------------

Mike,

Yes, the convention is to count clip position from the top of the needle. I gather from your previous post that you are running a cej-2. That needle will be significantly leaner in the mid section than the great majority of users and the large main is helping to compensate. I would suggest a 7 slide with the cej 4 or 3 and 178 main to start or a ddj-2-3 with a 175. Needle combos rich to lean are dcj-3,ddj-3,dcj-2,ddj-2. since you have a 6 slide dck and ddk needles would be good to have also.


Posted by: bclapham---------------------

Quote:
Originally posted by Rich Rohrich
I've been doing this stuff a long time but I immediately felt it was well worth the money.
Cheapest performance mod you'll probably ever buy. Everyone should have it .


i think this says it all, it gets very confusing when people talk about leaner/richer needles and slides and they all cross over to some extent so that adds yet more confusion. I think if you are having problems and want to get that bike dialled, you have to JD guide, period. It takes about 30 mins to figure out and there is no looking back. There are some really helpful people here, but we could go back and forth loads and still get nowhere. the guide has also got the plots for those Nxxx type OEM needles so you can rapidly figure out what and why people are running certain setups.


Posted by: RJ-KDX---------------------

I did a search on JD; JD's jetting guide; jetting guide; and JD's. I came up empty, where can you find JD's jetting guide?

Thanks,
RJ-KDX


Posted by: bclapham---------------------

JDJetting@comcast.net the man himself!


Posted by: MWEISSEN---------------------

Or go to Thumpertalk.


Posted by: Vitaliy---------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patman
BTW which Amsoil premix oil are you using? The 100:1 stuff or the Series 2000 Premix? My pumpkin spooged with any premix until I fixed the exhaust issue that all 360's had and got the jetting cleaned up. Then pretty much any good synthetic gave me the same results. I ran Series 2000 in pump premium at 50:1 with no issues at all and still use the Series 2000 at 80:1 in VP MR2 in my Montesa. Lots of folks do try to use the 100:1 oil because it's less expensive but if you read their product info it's pretty specific that it's for lawn equipment etc...


Hey Pat, what exactly did you do to the exhaust that you fixed. I have same bike, and have spooge between the cylinder and expansion chamber


Posted by: barry425---------------------

I have a 1983 CR480 that I run wide open for as much as 3 minutes on steep sand hills. I've been running AmsOil at the recommended 100:1 ratio for over 20 years with no problems. There is less oil going through the jet, so that means that MORE gas is going through the jet. At this ratio, I had to lean the jetting slightly.
I also have a 1986 CR500 that has been running the same mix for 15 years, a 1986 Suzuki 250 Quadracer that I bought new and has been using the same mix, a 1993 Banshee running the same mix since I got it in 2001, a 1987 CR250 running the same mix since 2007, and a 2000 CR500 that I just got and it runs fine one the same mix.
The CR480 was the only one I had to change the jetting on... and I think it was only the pilot jet.
The guy that had the CR250 before me was running Golden Spectro and the AmsOil is actually cleaning up the mess that the Spectro left.
I did a test with 2 identical CR480's in 1984 when I first bought the bike. My neighbor and I raced Fish Canyon at Ocotillo Wells and then we gave the engines the highly technical "spit test" (spitting on the engine fins). Both bikes were so hot that the spit immediately flashed into vapor.
We went back to camp and emptied the Spectro out of my bike and put in the AmsOil at 100:1. We than went and raced Fish Canyon again. Another spit test and his bike (running Spectro) flashed into vapor again. When we spit on the fins of my engine, however, it just sat on the fins. We couldn't believe it and started spitting on my engine. It was dripping with spit and never vaporized any of it. It must have been 40 degrees cooler. You couldn't even stand next to the other guy's bike it was so hot. I'm sold on AmsOil.


Posted by: barry425---------------------

One more thing I should mention: I finally opened up the CR480 after running the same piston for 20 years. The bore was so good that I just put another same size piston in it with new rings, wristpin, and bearing. That was in 2004 and it is still running great today.
One thing that should be noted is that AmsOil changed their formula, and I'm still running the old stuff. I haven't tried the new formula yet.



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