AMA Board votes down "Class Displacement"

[wardy]

Marketing my friends, this is all about a future sales, profits and marketing. I was told many times over and over on this rule change (which i have asked for the last 4 years) "we are NOT GOING BACKWARDS" this is the direction deal with it. Funny the customers are asking for it through congress which is dam near the only voice they have.
In my personal world, the 125 2 strokes are riding at our riding park, and not racing. However, racing which includes all makes and models made for racing is what needs to be done. TODAY we have these bikes, let them be competitive, lets include these people back into our sport of racing. Of course this may "hurt" the "plan", well how does excluding these people and thier money hurt AMA? How does not having an perfect entry level bike hurt the sport? How does making a decision in a board room with half manufacturers and half "member voted" board members going against a vote from congress (which is a cross section of the AMA) hurt the whole process? Why couldn't this rule change if it was so controverisal* be at least tabled for a year and then tweaked for 2008? Isn't the fact that when or if 2 strokes are totally phased out, then this rule change would be mute? Isn't AMA supposed to make the most level playing field possible in it's endeavor of amatuer racing? Last but not least, explain why this rule hurts AMA membership growth, competitiveness, or the overall marketing plan? These are only some of the questions many have, and will be asked. Congress may be a simple advisory council, but if this is the way our rules are to be dismissed, as important as these are to the local guy in that pickup truck, maybe things have to change in a bigger way.......... this is that little snowball at the top of the hill.

:)

 

[Vic]

I'll stay out of the way of your hair splitting in the future.

I doubt it.

Maybe this would help.

 

[whenfoxforks-ruled]

Bigger than the AMA?

So it sounds to me like this issue boils down to,,,,,, the manufactures want to sell 4strokes, they are easier to ride, they are allot more expensive to fix when they break,and it is the same style as the rest of their lineups.If they would have changed their past mistake it would have opened up the 2stroke market again, If they wait, it will close!

 

[FruDaddy]

My boys AMA membership is up for renewal, it looks like I have a decision to make, I hope that I make the best choice for the sport.

While they barely resemble "stock" at least NASCAR keeps the equipment equal.

 

[SpDyKen]

I want to address the issue referred to by several people in this, and other threads, that criticize the AMA, or in some cases, AMA pro racing. The "conspiracy theory" is that the AMA is controlled, and thus run, behind the scenes, anyway, by the big 4 Japanese manufacturers. In the context of this discussion, that would mean that these manufacturers want to "eliminate" the 2T in favor of the more "lucrative" 4T. I understand that this would be a natural thought path to follow if one was trying to rationalize the illogical behavior of the AMA decision makers.

I have tried to "boycott" the AMA for several years for their inexcusable behavior, under different administrations. When I was recently "strong-armed" into rejoining this incompetently run organization, I discovered that I am now among the large group of "Charter Members." Here is my opinion of the AMA, after 30+ years of observation:

Those in control, now and for many years previously, are NOT patsies for the big 4, or for H.D. They are a egotistical, megalomaniac, group of individuals, who, for the most part, have no significant work experience prior to their employ at this large, member owned organization. As they work their way to the upper management, these people begin to believe that they, in all of their infinite wisdom, actually know what is "best" for us all and subsequently work to accomplish the goals that they have set out to accomplish.

It is my belief, that, this same people purport to know what is "best" for the manufacturers, in their own perspective. If one pays attention to the manufacturers relationship with the AMA, as I have for 20+ years, it becomes very evident that these business entities are every bit as frustrated as we, the members, are with the AMA. This is business to them. They have to play the game; it frequently frustrates them, but they continue to negotiate the most favorable environment possible.

Later, I'll continue my thoughts on this. but in summary, I believe that the staff of the AMA disregards the suggestions of the motorcycle manufacturers every bit as much as they disregard OUR suggestions and wishes! :bang: :coocoo:These folks are much more incompetent than most folks give them credit for!

 

[hockeyboy]

Inequity of the AMA

It does appear that the AMA is in the back pocket of Honda. Honda builds a non conforming bike, the CRF 150, and it is immediately approved for competition in the 85cc class. The AMA basically prohibits any manufacturer (KTM) from building a more competitive 2 stroke (144cc) in the 250F lites class. Yet, they give Honda, the leading 4 stroke co. a free pass, and slam the door on KTM, the leading 2 stroke co. It seems that the AMA isn't going to give the 2 stroke a chance to level the playing field. We should fight every effort to limit our choices of dirt bikes. How long will it be before someone at the AMA decides that 4 strokes are the new enemy. If we don't wake up soon, it won't be long before we're all forced to ride Battery powered, noiseless, smogless dirtbikes provided by G.E. It doesn't sound like that much fun to me.

 

[whenfoxforks-ruled]

Now were getting somewhere!

I want to address the issue referred to by several people in this, and other threads, that criticize the AMA, or in some cases, AMA pro racing. The "conspiracy theory" is that the AMA is controlled, and thus run, behind the scenes, anyway, by the big 4 Japanese manufacturers. In the context of this discussion, that would mean that these manufacturers want to "eliminate" the 2T in favor of the more "lucrative" 4T. I understand that this would be a natural thought path to follow if one was trying to rationalize the illogical behavior of the AMA decision makers.

I have tried to "boycott" the AMA for several years for their inexcusable behavior, under different administrations. When I was recently "strong-armed" into rejoining this incompetently run organization, I discovered that I am now among the large group of "Charter Members." Here is my opinion of the AMA, after 30+ years of observation:

Those in control, now and for many years previously, are NOT patsies for the big 4, or for H.D. They are a egotistical, megalomaniac, group of individuals, who, for the most part, have no significant work experience prior to their employ at this large, member owned organization. As they work their way to the upper management, these people begin to believe that they, in all of their infinite wisdom, actually know what is "best" for us all and subsequently work to accomplish the goals that they have set out to accomplish.

It is my belief, that, this same people purport to know what is "best" for the manufacturers, in their own perspective. If one pays attention to the manufacturers relationship with the AMA, as I have for 20+ years, it becomes very evident that these business entities are every bit as frustrated as we, the members, are with the AMA. This is business to them. They have to play the game; it frequently frustrates them, but they continue to negotiate the most favorable environment possible.

Later, I'll continue my thoughts on this. but in summary, I believe that the staff of the AMA disregards the suggestions of the motorcycle manufacturers every bit as much as they disregard OUR suggestions and wishes! :bang: :coocoo:These folks are much more incompetent than most folks give them credit for!

I love it , getting to the bottom of a problem! Okay so typically in democratic playing fields you have to have some sort of checks and balances, why don't we here! It is obvious to me that these yahoo's need to be put in check!

 

[Eric Gorr]

I'm working on a discussion for Pit Pass Radio about the new rule changes. The other guests will include Steve Johnson of Wiseco and Sean Hilbert of Cobra. I promise it will be interesting and thought provoking and I'll post a date once I get confirmation.
One interesting point that Sean Hilbert makes, the current thinking on displacement parity is far more complicated because of one simple law of engine dynamics: a component of HP is RPM, 2-strokes are limited because of scavenging efficentcy, port-time-area, and exhaust pipe geometry. Current 4-stroke dirt bikes are limited by valve trains but the engines that they trickle-down evolved from use pnuematic valve trains (gas springs) and the possiblity of making a 450 rev to 19,000 rpm and produce 80hp is very possible. In fact a guy who worked with me for an F-1 vendor in the UK (Perfect Bore) has adapted gas springs from one of our old customers (1999 vintage F-1) and uses a nitrogen tank that fits in the air box of a CRF450 to support the system.
You guys think your head is spinning now? Just wait!

Hey back in the 70s if anybody told me that people would be traveling to the races in $250,000 trucks and riding 4-strokes with electric starters that revved to 14 grand and cost $35hr to operate the engine alone, I would of thought they were nuts. But I just got back from the MINI O's and saw 6 year olds jumping KTM65s 100ft then coming off the track and toting their toy trucks to the sandbox to play.
I'm not surprised by anything anymore!

 

[funkypunk97]

I miss the sound of 40 250cc 2-strokes leaving the gate at a National, there was and never will be again any sound like it....

It took me a while to warm to the 4-strokes and I was amazed at how quick they took over. It was only a matter of time before these rules took hold and with them the final nail in the 2-stroke coffin....

I am also involved with ATV racing, and have raced for many years. The Honda 250R was THE machine for years and it dominated every level. But in the ATVs too the 4-strokes took over and now are totally banned from ATVmx competition.

Maybe it's progress for the sake of progress, but the reality is that the machines have gotten better and competition too is getting better. The 2-stroke had reach a pinnacle of development, there was not much farther to go into the configuration to make the power any better. The 4-strokes are in their infancy and have relegated the 2-stroke into oblivion, so it stands to reason that the 4-strokes will be even more amazing in the next generation of development.

The AMA might not be perfect (far from it) but they are looking into the future and trying to grow the sport. Whether or not they are going down the correct path will remain open for debate until the future actually arrives.

 

[Chili]

Hey back in the 70s if anybody told me that people would be traveling to the races in $250,000 trucks and riding 4-strokes with electric starters that revved to 14 grand and cost $35hr to operate the engine alone, I would of thought they were nuts. But I just got back from the MINI O's and saw 6 year olds jumping KTM65s 100ft then coming off the track and toting their toy trucks to the sandbox to play.
I'm not surprised by anything anymore!

Which leads right into the main part of this proposed rule change as I understand it, keeping a chance at affordable racing for the guy that shows up in his pickup a few times a month.

 

[oldguy]

It does appear that the AMA is in the back pocket of Honda. Honda builds a non conforming bike, the CRF 150, and it is immediately approved for competition in the 85cc class.

When and where did this happen???
My understanding is that the 150F is not legal in the 85 classes just in the supermini. I could be wrong (have been in the past) and am not in any way defending the incompetance of the AMA just hoping to keep facts straight

 

[Zenith]

The 2-stroke had reach a pinnacle of development, there was not much farther to go into the configuration to make the power any better. The 4-strokes are in their infancy and have relegated the 2-stroke into oblivion,

I've seen this said before; where do you get that idea from? I remember Eric saying a couple of years ago the complete opposite - that four strokes had come almost as far as they could but two strokes hadn't.
I think you're just not looking outside the motocross scene. This generation of four strokes are new to the MX scene, of course they're seen to be making great strides forward, but most of those strides are coming from other areas (for example F1) that were developed years ago. If you were seeing 125fs racing against 125 two strokes I don't think you'd feel the same way.

I'm disappointed with the AMA Board's decision on this. Look forward to hearing you interview Eric, I've been waiting to hear what the likes of yourself and Rich had to say on all this!

 

[hockeyboy]

Oldguy, you are right! The CRF 150 is legal in the super-mini's not the 85's. Sorry, it was late at night when I posted.

 

[Zenith]

I assumed that's what this meant - "Four-strokes up to 150cc will also be allowed in Schoolboy-class racing.". Maybe not?

 

[kawicam250]

a guy on TT said that the 150R wont be legal to race against 85s. its been a while since ive seen Eric on the board, good luck with your interview :nod:

 

[wardy]

HEY! Eric, from a guy who was riding what a 525 somethin with an electric starter the last time i seen ya!!

here is the deal. They blew us out of the water mainly because of the 250 heads up. We felt todays machines were much closer competitiveness then 125-250 we have now. But it goes straight against the "direction" the OEM's want to go. Basically we screwed with thier marketing plan. That simple. They say they will "study" it for a year and then see, like we haven't asked for this rule the last few years. Actually they wait this out, they know time makes this problem go away. You see when congress voted straight up and passed this with this kind of support, they had to listen, for a while. Before it was just a few of us they call trouble makers?
We tried to pass a rule to level the playing field, allow a better opportunity for lower price entry level racing, and fix something that was needed to be done for a long time.
We felt it was a good rule, because it didn't add a ton of classes, in our district it wouldn't add any, but in some that didn't keep open class it would add 2-3. It worked with machines that are currently being made, we didn't ask anyone to make special bikes or change that end.


150 deal,
Dave, the rule is what passed congress, 150 in schoolboy or/and supermini only. With a little lengthening of the wheel base in the "lites" class with old rules still in place. Today the 150 meets that requirment but it has to be long enough. Ultimately the 150 will get pushed on us in the 85 sr class, i can see how this will be an issue til it happens. When you show up at a committee meeting with all the OEM's there, and you are presented with 5 pages of honda marketing, easy to see what is "desired". Oh and the rule change for the 150 to be in even the 7-11 class, presented by "staff". So we expect to see that rule back in front of us again and again.



Hey last thought, eric, see if they can someone on the radio from staff, seems they like to get on internet radio and blow the rule change out prior to the vote, actually made the vote sound like a forgone conclusion. I would listen to that one and then call in!!! Maybe pitpass would take my phone call, LOL the other guys wouldn't

wardy

 

[Imack]

I was wondering about this issues and it is when the Miss Universe pageant is won by the ugliest...! Seems like the guys from AMA are not for the riders, but for the manufacturer's and the EPA. I am a 2 stroke advocate and believe that equivalent classes must be done by equal "integrals under the power curve" between certain RPM range, in this way the bikes are classified by "energy available". When we speak of a 125 cc two stroke, that isn't really 125 cc, it is just a convention since the trapped volume is just about half of that (exhaust closes at about 1/2 of the stroke). On the other hand the trapped volume in 4-strokes is just the sweept volume. But how can we expect the guys from AMA know this..! I think the whole MX community need to fight the AMA..! Quit paying dues..!

 

[FruDaddy]

Imack, the boycott you are asking for is impossible. It would require the thousands of people wanting to qualify for the largest amateur race (Loretta's) in this country to voluntarily render themselves ineligible. Add to that the fact that most of those riders are riding the thumpers and therefore benefit from this decision and you are simply proposing an exercise in futility.
While I don't disagree with the notion that something must be done, realistically speaking, a boycott will not happen. We would have an easier time finding competent leadership in the AMA.

 

[whenfoxforks-ruled]

Impressive sounding forum!

Late at night,not for sure if I've even seen or heard anything about it before, or just a stupid question, but how does this ama board get "voted in"?

 

[Micahdawg]

Wardy,

I thought the 4 stroke handicap rule was around before 1998. Please elaborate. 1998 just seems to me like a very “curious” year to try and push it along to the AMA Congress considering Yamaha’s 400F development had already been well underway.

I also wonder what was the board’s reasoning for not allowing the KTM144. You can bore your own machine, but you cannot buy a completely new “manufacturer engineered” 144? Hmmm.

I seek comfort in two things though. The “voice” of the AMA is pro evening the playing field. And KTM seems to be very committed to two stroke technology. Meaning, if the rules eventually change and KTM are the only ones making a two stroke….you will still see a resurgence. Remember, there was a time when only Yamaha was making a competitive 4 stroke, then only Yamaha and Honda….etc…..

Finally, I think a 250 vs. 250 class would be interesting. While a 250F is a very fast bike, the 250 two stroke is still faster (by 2007 standards). However, the 250F has the much lower torque range + more tractable power, which I could see being an incentive to give it a shot. I bet it would make for some very close racing.

Keep fighting the good fight Wardy!

Micah

 

[Eric Gorr]

Wardy,
My KTM was a 625cc Adventure, the good part is it only weighed 400 lbs and held 7 gallons of gas, just in case you want to ride for the whole summer!
Now I have a YZ155 and I love drag racing 250Fs.
The AMA is freaking out because less people are racing but more are practising. Us practioners don't worry about rules, points, shiny disco jackets, just ride time.

I'm working on some possible ideas for a Pit Pass Radio show, here is a preview of my notes.

Proposed topics for discussion are included in this article

AMA Rule Changes – Rich Man Poor Man Sequel Gets Political!

Super Stock Class Rule Changes
In an effort to reduce the number of protests at major amateur races and allow a measure of customization to improve safety, the AMA allowed changes like suspension revalving and springs to original components, and aftermarket controls like handlebars, grips, and levers. In previous years riders have been protested and disqualified for silly things like aftermarket handgrips that don’t offer a competitive advantage.
The biggest hassles happened at AMA Youth Qualifiers for Stock classes, where parents have a significant investment in attending an event and their kid misses qualifying by a few places so the parents protest the riders ahead of them in order to bump anybody for the most insignificant differences from stock. These protests added extra time to events and discouraged race promoters from applying for Youth events.

Drawing a Line in the Dirt - 4-Stroke 150s not allowed in the 85cc class
The FIM passed rules regarding the integration of the latest models of 4-stroke 150cc bikes into the 85cc minicycle classes. This move will surely push out the stead fast 2-stroke bikes from Europe.

The AMA didn’t concur with the FIM and that is controversial since they have followed the FIM rule changes in the past. AMA Congressmen, mostly a collection of race promoters, club officials, and track owners held solidarity on the integration of 4-strokes into the mini class despite intense lobbying by the manufacturers. Congressmen “drew a line in the dirt” allowing only the big wheel CRF150 and YZ150F in the Supermini and Junior classes. The main point sited is this; 4-strokes are raising the cost of racing and less fortunate people are getting discouraged and pushed out of racing because they can’t afford to compete.

250Fs – Class Bully Gets Shoved Around!
The most dramatic rule proposal was to push the 250 4-strokes into the 250 class to compete against 2-strokes. The rule didn’t pass, probably because it presented a logistical problem for promoters and the backlash from dealers and manufacturers would’ve been huge.

Consider this, if the rule went through promoters would have far more entrants in the 250 class and far fewer in the 125 class. That means that they would have to run more 250 qualifiers, semis, and finals. It would’ve changed the format of local racing. The motorcycle manufacturers and dealers were concerned that there wouldn’t be enough 2-stroke 250 bikes available, since those bikes would have the class advantage. Manufacturers produce next years’ models in March and dealers place orders in July. The other concern was that the market price of 250Fs both new and used would fall creating rapid deflation in the market. Dealers faced the possibility of being stuck with a lot of money worth of 250F inventory that was not competitive.

The obvious solution is to create a 250F class and let the rich kids and their parent fight it out together, but don’t look for that rule proposal anytime soon. Savvy race promoters like Aaron Vincer of Motosports Park in Byron Illinois have created 125cc 2-stroke only classes. Aaron recognized that with a large supply of cheap, used, non-current 125s on the market, creating a new class might give new riders the incentive to spend more money on racing rather than on just practicing.

Solution to the 125 Class
Here’s an idea for the AMA, why not separate 250Fs from the 125 class by starting an Amateur Lite class. Leave the 125s compete with 150Fs and 105s and encourage younger less experienced growing riders to populate the class until it can eventually be phased out as the manufacturers stop making new model 125s. The riders who seem to suffer the biggest engine catastrophies with 250Fs are inexperienced riders who jump from a 85 2-stroke to a 250F. The 125 class at the nationals should be for Juniors/Schoolboy.

Amateur Lite could be an A class at the amateur nationals and act as a lead-in for racers to step up to the Arenacross series. The long term goal of the AMA is to provide a “Goal Path” for professional racers by making them race Arenacross before being eligible to race Supercross. Why not extend the “farm system” to amateur racing with a premier A class named Amateur Lites?

Opening Up the Open Class
When motocross came to America in 1966, the 500s were the premier class in the world championships. 5-Time World Champion Roger DeCoster was once quoted as saying “anything less than an open bike, is just a baby bike”. The AMA has had a tenuous relationship with the Open class, discontinuing it from pro racing in the mid-1990s and constantly changing the rules for amateur racing with complicated restrictions regarding 2&4-stroke displacement. With current rules, in order to race a 250 2-stroke in the Open class, it has to be 15% larger in displacement (285cc) which means spending as much as $2,500 with aftermarket hop-up shops. That’s cost prohibitive for most riders, and most of the late model 250T engines are designed to be dimensionally impossible to enlarge the displacement beyond 265cc.

The AMA should make the Open class 251cc and greater which enables greater participation and competition. 450Fs should be in the Open class because they will always be far more competitive than a standard 250T. Consider this, inexpensive hop-ups can be performed to 250Ts to bump displacement to 265cc, 250Fs can be modified for even less money to 262cc. A wide variety of 500cc 2-strokes, and anything 4-stroke ranging from all the way up to 650cc 4-strokes should be legal for the Open class just like Europe.

AMA Pro Conundrum
Concerns of rising injury rates (specifically Marshall and Fonseca) and the steady upward development of 450s towards the 70hp mark, the AMA proposed some thought provoking ideas for the future of the Arenacross and Supercross 450 class, tame down the engines in displacement and horsepower. This presents the manufacturers with some hard R&D decisions. Do they make a detuned 450 or a hopped-up 250? What do they use as a platform? A 300cc engine kit could be easily produced with these components; crankshaft, cylinder, piston, cylinder head, exhaust pipe, and ignition. These kits could be produced and marketed by the manufacturers for retrofit on 250F models.
Heres another idea, why not keep 450s, shift technology thinking from tuning to detuning and narrow the focus the sound issue. Making 450s quieter will automatically detune the power. Its like killing 2 birds with one stone. Imagine this, dual mufflers with u-tubes pointing to the ground could be fashioned and the side panel space increased to cover the system and provide greater advertising space.

Deregulation Enables Aftermarket Explosion!
The AMA rule changes included a certain measure of deregulation that could enable growth of the aftermarket and more mass customization for consumers. In the stock classes, suspension component customization and control options will surely proliferate. In the Supermini class, the ban on crankshaft stroking has been rescinded and the class limit has been changed from 105 to 112 in order to achieve parity with the NMA. The 125 class is wide open, with CRF150s, Superminins, and a maximum of 144cc 125s in competition together. Look for products like big bore pistons, stroker cranks, as well as a bevy of engine components designed for greater displacement engines like cylinder kits, camshafts, bigger valves, exhaust systems, and ignitions.

Tackling the Problem
The biggest controversy facing American motocross is the question of parity in displacement between 2 & 4-stroke engines, and is the driving force for most of the proposed 2007 rule changes. The average operating cost per engine hour is as much as three times greater on a 4-stroke. And although the powerbands of 4-strokes are very forgiving and enhance rider abilities, the consequences of rider error are not forgiving. One extra downshift in the air over a jump can cause mechanical overrevving and energetic engine disassembly (blow-up). In an instant a rider can be faced with a $2,500 repair bill, and risk pushing him out of the sport entirely.

The power advantage and cost disadvantage of 4-strokes have created class and displacement disparity. In America, motocross has traditionally been a low cost motorsport where rider skill is paramount. In Europe the opposite is true, there are no poor people racing motocross so great effort is expended on making the motorcycle a bigger part of the winning equation. Europeans spend more Euros per capita on performance enhancements to their bikes than Americans. Integrating 4-strokes into the minicycle classes is a natural evolution but it presents a variety of future problems for the next generation of European riders. Riding 2-stroke dirt bikes encourages a rider to develop skills in managing forward motion through keen skills in clutching, shifting, throttle control, braking, and controlling the gyroscopic energy of a motorcycle during jumping. The pitch, roll, and yaw of a motorcycle can be affected by torque reactions in the three gyroscopes (the wheels and the crankshaft). Initiating torque reactions on a 2-stroke bike are much more difficult than on a 4-stroke dirt bike. For example, changing the pitch of a 2-stroke bike to lower the front end for a smooth landing from a table-top jump involves pulling in the clutch, chopping the throttle, and stabbing the rear brake in order to initiate a torque reaction of the rear wheel. On a 4-stroke bike, a rider can easily affect a change in pitch just by backing off the throttle.

Originally the Japanese manufacturers lobbied the AMA to allow 250 4-strokes to compete against 125cc 2-strokes and 450Fs to compete against 250Ts. The AMA allowed the rule to pass without ever seeing a production 4-stroke, and they made special considerations regarding non-homogulated prototype 4-strokes to race in professional events (Doug Henry 1997 Yamaha YZ400F).

In recent years, Cobra Motorcycle president Sean Hilbert, and chief technical officer Phil McDowell have attempted to lobby the AMA with a revised concept of determining parity in displacement between 2 & 4-strokes. Previously formulas like peak horsepower, area under the curve of a dyno chart, and thermal units have all been discussed but there is a new twist on the horizon to this old controversy. Consider that modern 4-stroke dirt bikes evolved from F-1 racecars but there are still major advancements that could be implemented to create a greater difference in power between 2&4-strokes. Two-stroke engines are limited in RPM by port-time-area, exhaust pipe dimensions, and the efficiency of cylinder scavenging. Four-stroke engines are limited mostly by valve trains (spring reaction and valve float). By implementing F-1 technology like ignition systems with no rev limiter, lighter reciprocating components, and pneumatic valve trains that can push the rev limit of a 450 to 19,000 rpm and produce as much as 85hp. That is nearly double the average power of a modern 250 2-stroke.

More technology is starting to trickle down from F-1. Pneumatic valve train assemblies from F-1 engines are about the same size as the ones used on 450 dirt bikes. These parts consist of two bucket shaped parts, one acts as the tappet riding against the cam and actuating the valve and the other is the gas spring and includes a seal and a jet orifice and check valve linked to a source of pressurized nitrogen gas tank. Gas springs offer faster reaction time than coil springs. Tuners in the UK have already successfully adapted gas springs into YZF450 engines. Factory teams are using lightweight valve train parts and coil springs with a range up to 14,000 rpm. Programmable ignitions from Vortex, enable tuners to eliminate the rev limiter option and let the rider decide how high to rev the engine. The current crop of factory 450cc bikes produce and estimated 20hp more than a production 450. (68 vs. 48hp)

 

[Solid State]

Eric,

I will certainly be interested in listening to that show based on your notes.

Regarding the 'Tackling the Problem' segment, is the nitrogen in the pressurized tank expendable or is it recirculated and repressurized?

Also, does a shop make more profit working on a steady diet of 4-strokes or 2-strokes or a combination of both? (assume that major investment for equipment for both technologies has been recaptured).

I was just wondering if the local service shops fair any better with either technology. For instance, you may charge less to service a 2-stroke, but may make more profit because you can do more in a day.

Perhaps 4-strokes are better because you can make more profit on parts since there are more parts involved and the labor may take longer but could warrant a higher fee due to specialization or complexity. Still, there is a limit to how much a rider will pay to have their bike fixed. Any thoughts?

 

[wardy]

eric, thank you for the insight. But the simple answer we had would put the riders first with choice and cost in mind. The promoters and clubs are out there to promote the sport and give riders the fairest, most level playing field. that is supposed to be what AMA is about, but I guess "we" @ (congress) are just a bunch mindless, money grubbing worms who don't listen to our riders.

Consider the other aspect of your notes. When that rider transforms to a 250F he didn't obtain the cornering skills of a larger 2 stroke, but has now greater speed. he now can jump bigger jumps without "learning" to keep his speed up. when he augers in, Or like you said, down shifts and blows that machine to heck, the next thing that happens is he endo's his butt into oblivian. Results are not cool, I have seen so many blown up, nasty injuries lately. Go to the rider, ask "what happen"? he says look at the motor, you see a piston and a pile of scrap. So know yes he has a 2500.00 rebuild, AND quite possibly 2500-5000 deductable, rehab time, and likely done with the sport of motocross. This has happened three times this year alone at races I was at.
Sure anyone can be hurt, but this sport has alot of changing to do.

THis is marketing 101 here, where was the 2 stroke going in 1997? What was some of the biggest complaints from the riders...............BNG. Those three letters summed up most of what the OEM's problems were. They didn't have alot of "new" stuff for the riders to get all worked up about. Which then translates to sales. SO they make a new concerted effort with the 4 stroke, no small task to change mind set and change buying habbits, in turn changed our mx sport, but hey it's all about epa. then we find out the 4 stroke closed course machine is not compliant either. well AMA comes to the rescue, changes class structures so a 2 banger's only chance is to brake check the dude on a thumper so he kills it and then a lap later you wave as he kicks his head off. todays 4 strokes start to easy LOL>!
$-strokes are here to stay no question, 2 strokes are destine to be gone, but today we still have them, yamaha just made last year a new 125, so are argument is simple, allow these machines to be competitive again, which in turn brings in more people to our sport.

HA! ever see the poor soul who just bought a thumper used? I see them all the time at the shop in town, after a new top end. He isn't in there buying parts and fixing it, he is end there making payments.
today you can't sell a thumper (race bike) for anykind of resale, 2 smokes were bad also, but not this bad. Not many consider that factor in the cost of these machines.

on a personal note, I ride a 2 stroke 500. I like it even though on some track conditions in this state it is harder to hook up then my 450 counter parts. However, a 155.00 top end, and virtually no maintanence all season are the perks. (AJ is shuddering right now). Tell me what 4 stroke can say that? The 500 just eats tires, but they are one heck of alot easier to change then some of the things i see need to be done on a 450.?

My contention is, if ALL the OEM's STOP building 2 strokes tommorow, I will bet the farm that many start up companys will see the need and build a two stroke, that will happen i am sure of it. Cobra stated that in the meeting at congress when we were there this fall.

enough of my "simple" answer

wardy

 

[booneyscb]

AMA--No leadership there. KTM--Leadership in abundance.

 

[booneyscb]

Maximum noise level regardless of rpm of 100 db would solve any disparity issues as to class structure for 2 stroke versus 4. If anyone enforced the noise rule in Indiana more than 60 % of four strokes would be illegal.

Propose limiting 250 four strokes to 225cc for 2009. 450 four strokes to be 400cc at the same time.

Bring speeds down. Slower speeds equal better racing. Have less injuries. Have repeat business at your track.