Confused about knee braces

[Chili]

Thump I recall that thread, in fact it was one of the main reasons I got him cells in the first place.

 

[Thump]

Yeah Chili, it has to be a tough call for you guys though too. I watched Troy go down in front of me. Came inches from hitting him. I saw the agony on his face while we waited for the ambu. Bad stuff.

I also know I trashed my knee pulling off the track at only a few miles per hour and it will never be the same.

I have never had a femur break and don't want one. I have heard that they can heal 100% with no long lasting effects. Don't know if that is true or not but I know a knee reconstruction will get you moving but it will never be the same again and I have never heard anyone that has had reconstructive surgery say otherwise.

 

[velosapiens]

Knee braces offer relatively good insurance against knee injury.

what medical studies led you to this conclusion? i have never heard an actual doctor that specializes in orthopedics say this. on the contrary, i have hear several say that once recovery from a knee injury is complete that braces are not needed.

what really provides 'relatively good insurance against knee injury' is the following:

1) don't be a fat cow. the heavier you are, the more stress you put on your knee.

2) be in shape, specifically around your knee. doing squats, lunges, lotsa bicycling and xc skiing, etc.... will help build muscles that will stabilize and protect your knee.

3) be flexible. stretch, do yoga, then stretch some more and do some more yoga. increasing the flexibility of your connective tissue keeps it from tearing when stressed.

4) learn how to ride a freakin' bike. falling over hurts.

5 learn how to fall off a freakin' bike. i only crash a couple times a year, but i roll out of it, get back on and keep going. i don't know how to teach graceful falling. i learned it from skiing and skateboarding and surfing as a kid. if you can go back in time, do so. otherwise, take your kids skiing so they won't be spaz's.

i think knee braces are kinda like celebrity diets. everyone wants the benefits by buying something or taking a pill, and no one wants to just do the hard work to stay healthy.

i'm no doctor, but i have been a competitive athlete for the last 30 years. i don't wear knee braces.

-mark

 

[velosapiens]

I really don't see how you will "build-up" muscle by not wearing braces? The braces simply stop hyper-extension, twisting etc, they don't support weight, at least mine don't. Even if they did, wearing them while riding a couple times a week sure won't make a "muscle" difference.

umm, i think firecracker might have been talking about something foreign to many people that wear knee braces, i.e. actually getting some exercise. i'm pretty sure there was no claim that not wearing knee braces will strengthen your legs, but rather that strengthening your legs and stabilizing your knees with muscle is better protection than knee braces in the opinion of most qualifed persons.

 

[Okiewan]

Velo...You are passing off some of the weakest/worst advice possible. Congrats.

And the medical studies you are quoting? Please? Who's saying strong knees aren't important?

but rather that strengthening your legs and stabilizing your knees with muscle is better protection than knee braces in the opinion of most qualifed persons.

Let's see your referenced studies. Post up some links from these "qualified persons" please. For each one you supply, I'll post 2 that disagree.

I've seen first hand a GREAT athelete blow a knee via hyper-extension and then gimp around for a year after reconstruction. He wore thor knee pads. Guess what he wore after recovery? I saw the video of Tony Dorsett blow a knee simply running, think he needed to do more yoga? Work on that couch potato body of his? Learn how to run?

 

[velosapiens]

That being said, I'll assume that the top MX'er's on the planet have good docs and they all (save one, that's KW and just something read here.. frankly I've seen pics of KW and would swear he was wearing braces), anyway... they all wear braces... why? Sponsorship dollars? Wouldn't sticker on their helmet cover that?

for the right sum (not even all that much), i would take the pros lead and wear knee braces. i don't believe they'll do me any good, but money is money.

note that pros also wear fox boots, and it's not because they're the best, most protective boots. they are comfy tho.

 

[Okiewan]

You don't read do you? From this very thread....

I'll promise you this... Asterisk did NOT pay to put that logo on his helmet.

That was the company policy as of last year. We can confirm that with Billy but last I heard Asterisk did not pay any sponsorship dollars to the riders.

And yes, they (virtually all pros) were wearing Asterisk Cells or CTI 2's (both from the same company) last year. They just need to get in shape and quit looking for the quick fix?

 

[velosapiens]

You don't read do you? From this very thread....

haha, holy irony!

so, i assume that you are in similar condition to tony dorsett? and you have a medical degree? i personally haven't seen ANY actual scientific studies done on this subject, just alot of mythology, speculation, anecdotes and advertising hype. my opinions fall into the speculation and anecdotes at best also. i would be interested in reading some real scientific study on the subject.

Dr Mark (advises on two other unnamed but popular website), and my ex-gf's dr (an orthopedic specialist in tahoe who deals mostly with ski and mtn bike injuries) are my main sources of actual medical information on the subject. the rest is just my anecdotal experience, which is worth about the same is your watching great athletes and tony dorsett. i.e., nothing at all from a scientific standpoint.

Velo...You are passing off some of the weakest/worst advice possible. Congrats.

wow. tough crowd. of course i'm not taking advertising dollars from anyone. i can easily say the same thing without backing it up.

 

[Okiewan]

Okay...

so, i assume that you are in similar condition to tony dorsett?

What? The point was rather simple.. I'd guess a premier runing back would have strong enough muscle and flexibilty to support his knee ... maybe more muscle than the knee could handle?

i'm not taking advertising dollars from anyone.

FYI.. Asterisk, or any other knee brace mfg has NEVER paid to advertise on this site. Sponsored DirtWeek 3 years ago, yup. Your point? Surely you aren't implying I'd cause potential harm to readers for advertising dollars?

 

[Okiewan]

About the worst possible advice? This specifically:

4) learn how to ride a freakin' bike. falling over hurts.

5 learn how to fall off a freakin' bike. i only crash a couple times a year, but i roll out of it, get back on and keep going.

How can that possibly be worth posting with the intention of giving advice?

 

[velosapiens]

. I'd guess a premier runing back would have strong enough muscle and flexibilty to support his knee ... maybe more muscle than the knee could handle?

too much muscle strength for the ligaments is possible in a world-class athlete. it's actually fairly common in steroid users (note, i am not accusing dorsett of steroid use).

i was overseas in the military for most of dorsett's pro career, so i didn't see the actual injury you cite. it sounds like something that knee braces would have no effect on tho. that was certainly the case with my ex-gf. she simply landed a bit hard skiing, and pop, there went the acl. no twisting, no hyperextension, just a little more load than the ligament could handle.

i'm not one of the people saying knee braces are bad (note that there are doctors who are believe they are dangerous). i just think that getting in shape is better than buying another product to protect you. if that's the weakest/worst advice possible, then feel free to ignore it. most people appear to ignoring pretty effectively to judge by their vast girth.

-mark

 

[Okiewan]

most people appear to ignoring pretty effectively to judge by their vast girth

So we've established that those pro's wearing Cells (at last word) aren't being paid, so they are wearing them due to their girth?

Okay, I'm done :p All I can say is I will beg ANYONE I care about to wear braces.
My ortho is pro-braces for my hobby btw.

 

[Masterphil]

You clearly don't ride that hard or that often. I'd really like to see you "roll" out of most of the crashes I've had. What a joke...

I'm of the camp that says a bone break is better than soft tissue damage anyway. I have a friend from high-school that blew out his knee walking across some wet grass. Here it is 5 years later and he still isin't 100%, never will be. I'll take my chances with the increase possibility of femur breakage. A pair of cells will likely be my first big moto purchase this season.

 

[Thump]

too much muscle strength for the ligaments is possible in a world-class athlete. it's actually fairly common in steroid users (note, i am not accusing dorsett of steroid use).

I thought you said you did not have a medical degree? If I am not mistaken steroid use can damage the tendons, the conective tissue from the muscle to the bone because the muscle grows so strong that the tendon can not support the forces applied, not the ligaments.

i was overseas in the military for most of dorsett's pro career, so i didn't see the actual injury you cite. it sounds like something that knee braces would have no effect on tho. that was certainly the case with my ex-gf. she simply landed a bit hard skiing, and pop, there went the acl. no twisting, no hyperextension, just a little more load than the ligament could handle.

Actually a knee brace absolutely could have prevented it by stopping the forward migration of the tib/fib. As your quad tenses it brings your foot up right? If there is force on the foot such as catching a toe on the turf that energy takes the path of least resistance, migrating the tib/fib forward. Another example of this is when you sit to do leg extensions. As you exert force you leg straightens out and the weight is raised. If you bounce the weight your tib/fib slide forward stressing the ACL. That is why my ortho suggested I not do leg extensions unless they have a tib/fib stabilizer attachment on which connects to where your feet go or for me to where braces when I do them. Are you saying science and physics are wrong?

i'm not one of the people saying knee braces are bad (note that there are doctors who are believe they are dangerous). i just think that getting in shape is better than buying another product to protect you. if that's the weakest/worst advice possible, then feel free to ignore it. most people appear to ignoring pretty effectively to judge by their vast girth.

I was in pretty good shape when I blew my knee out. Not like my military days but running about 25 miles a week and hitting the gym 5 days a week. So girth and lack of strength had nothing to do with my accident. Just bad luck and lack of protection. The next time I was protected and walked away. See this incase you missed it the first time: http://www.dirtrider.net/forums3/showthread.php?t=76156

If I work my abs and chest like a mad man should I ditch the chest protector? How about if I work my calves and anckles, can I wear sneakers instead of boots. What if I strengthen my neck and facial muscles, do I still need a helmet or will a baseball cap work?

 

[Thump]

My ortho is pro braces for my sport but does stress the need for strength. His feeling is that motocross can apply forces to the body that are beyond the bodies capability to handle regardless of what kind of shape you are in. I had him look at the Cti2, Cti Edge, Asterisk Cell, Dil Defender, and XO Skeleton (yes I owned them all because I did a product test on all of them). He liked the Cell and the Cti2 which is what I liked too, however the Cti2 had insufficient impact protection oaround the knee due to a small and weak patella cup. The Cell has a telescoping knee cup that offers much better impact protection.

 

[Patman]

...my ex-gf's dr (an orthopedic specialist in tahoe who deals mostly with ski and mtn bike injuries) are my main sources of actual medical information on the subject.

Refer to my earlier post about medical experts knowing what riding is about. It's a different world from what these guys normall see and the loads on the body a significantly different therefore the knowledge on the subject should be gathered specifically on how braces effect riders not skiers or mtn bikers. :laugh:

 

[HajiWasAPunk]

Thanks for the insights guys.
Velo, are you for real? I mean if I could will myself to not crash then sure I woudn't need braces, or helmets or boots for that matter. And as for the fitness thing, I've been in to weightlifting and running for most of my life (from 14 to now at 33). I'm no triathelete but I run 2-3 times a week, lift twice a week and ride 2-3 times a week. I'm 5'8" and weigh 160. A little thicker than a 15 year old, but not bad enough to be a fitness issue. I don't care how good of shape your in, if you go on a mx track and try to go faster each time than you did last week, your going to crash at some point (and you probably will even if you're not trying to faster, its just part of the sport).



Anyway, I tried on some EVSs yesterday, is it normal that it feels really hard to bend your legs in them? The guy at the shop didn't seem very knowledgable about them so he offered little help. He was willing to take my money if I decided I wanted them though :)

 

[Chili]

what really provides 'relatively good insurance against knee injury' is the following:

1) don't be a fat cow. the heavier you are, the more stress you put on your knee.

2) be in shape, specifically around your knee. doing squats, lunges, lotsa bicycling and xc skiing, etc.... will help build muscles that will stabilize and protect your knee.

3) be flexible. stretch, do yoga, then stretch some more and do some more yoga. increasing the flexibility of your connective tissue keeps it from tearing when stressed.

4) learn how to ride a freakin' bike. falling over hurts.

5 learn how to fall off a freakin' bike. i only crash a couple times a year, but i roll out of it, get back on and keep going. i don't know how to teach graceful falling. i learned it from skiing and skateboarding and surfing as a kid. if you can go back in time, do so. otherwise, take your kids skiing so they won't be spaz's.

I was with you for the first 3 points. For point 4 I've seen RC and JBS on the ground this season, do they need to learn how to ride a freakin bike? For point 5, spaz or not if you get ejected going through a rythmn section in 3rd gear pinned I'm guessing you'll be a lot less graceful than you think.

 

[Chili]

Dr Mark (advises on two other unnamed but popular website)

Dr. Mark is one of the people I exchanged a few e-mails with on this matter. He is definately anti brace and makes no bones about it. His posts on another board are what started me down this road of doubt. I will say that his views on another couple of posts of late have led me to seek other opinions. Like has been mentioned you will likely be able to fill a quota of Doctor's both pro and con on this issue, good luck proving either of them right or wrong.

 

[Chili]

Anyway, I tried on some EVSs yesterday, is it normal that it feels really hard to bend your legs in them? The guy at the shop didn't seem very knowledgable about them so he offered little help. He was willing to take my money if I decided I wanted them though :)

No experience with the EVS braces other than listening to the stories of broken straps. With the cells my son had a bit of a time getting comfortable walking in them, riding was a non issue.

 

[truespode]

My ortho is pro-braces for my particular hobby. His practice takes care of the Carolina Panthers when they are in town for training camp.

Ivan

 

[Patman]

I've had several different braces over the years and they no doubt feel a little different than nothing. They need to be fitted properly for them to function and feel right. My ortho was very interested in the development of the Cells and when I mentioned I was considering them after my last problem of a split patella he suggested I get them because the design looked very good. I took them in when I got them and he fitted them up and adjset the range of motion where he liked it and I can say they feel better than ANY brace I've had on my leg. They are more bulky than a full custom brace but they move every bit as good and even better than some that I have worn. The patella cup is THE BEST (I've split my kneecap twice!) as it telescopes and offers full coverage through the complete range of motion. I would suggest looking in to several options to find what fits you and your budget best not just what is easily available. Then see if you can turn up somebody that has a good idea of how to fit the product to help you get it right.

 

[velosapiens]

You clearly don't ride that hard or that often. I'd really like to see you "roll" out of most of the crashes I've had. What a joke...

lol. yeah, you're probably right. i'm old, fat and slow. my bad.

I was with you for the first 3 points. For point 4 I've seen RC and JBS on the ground this season, do they need to learn how to ride a freakin bike

good point chili. my comments were more oriented towards ordinary folk. pro riders have to take risks that i'm not comfortable with. I'm a mid-front pack A enduro/Expert dezert racer, and like most of the rest of y'all, i have to go to work on monday morning. note that because of the shape rc and james are in, they can get up from crashes that would be pretty bad for the average out-of-shape rider.

i have had the good fortune to ride with some pretty fast guys from time to time, d36 champs, isde vets, and so forth. one thing i noticed is those guys very very rarely crash. imho, if you crash every ride or two, you're not very much like the really fast off-road guys.

anyway, this thread isn't about how to ride a bike. it sounds like you guys are all pretty skilled and fast already. the original poster wanted some opinions. i gave mine. i don't ride hard or often :coocoo: so you can discard it if you please.

 

[velosapiens]

The patella cup is THE BEST (I've split my kneecap twice!) as it telescopes and offers full coverage through the complete range of motion.

another good point. some of the knee braces i've seen do appear to have excellent impact protection. it wouldn't bother me if regular knee pads wrapped a little further around the sides and were thicker and more padded over the patella. some folks claim to like hockey pads for that purpose.

 

[velosapiens]

Thanks for the insights guys.
Velo, are you for real? I mean if I could will myself to not crash then sure I woudn't need braces, or helmets or boots for that matter.

i didn't mean to suggest that you should never ever crash. crashes happen. they happen way less often to some people tho. why do you suppose that is?