Mr. Bush is working on our side for 2 strokers

Ford-PSD

Uhhh...
Oct 22, 2002
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I borrowed this post from another site:

The Bush administration plans to allow more snowmobiles in Yellowstone and Grand Teton national parks on average, while cutting numbers on the busiest days. The decision reverses one taken during the Clinton presidency that would have banned them by next winter.


There would be no limits on snowmobiles for the winter season beginning next month and running until mid-March, Interior Department officials said.


But starting in December 2003, no more than 1,100 snowmobiles a day would be allowed in the two popular Western parks together and a portion of the John D. Rockefeller Jr. Memorial Parkway connecting them, the officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity.


For the past decade, the parks have had an average of 840 snowmobiles daily during the winter but up to 1,650 a day during holiday and other busy weekends. Both parks are in northwestern Wyoming, but Yellowstone also extends into Idaho and Montana, from where most snowmobilers enter the park.


The Interior Department planned to release an environmental impact statement Tuesday that details the proposal. The ceiling represents a compromise between unlimited access wanted by snowmobile makers and users and the ban sought by environmental groups and some Democrats in Congress.


"This is just a boon to the industry," said Kristen Brengel of The Wilderness Society, an environmental group. "This is not what the American public has been expecting."


Bill Dart, public lands director for Idaho-based Blue Ribbon Coalition, which advocates opening more public lands to recreational motor vehicles, said his group is satisfied with the peak-days ceiling, even though it might not reflect the rising popularity of snowmobiling in the parks in recent years.


"Clearly I don't think they're caving to industry," Dart said. "They're talking about one-third less numbers on peak days."


To minimize the impact and maximize safety, the regulations would require that 80 percent of the snowmobiles allowed in the two parks be led by commercial guides. Also, beginning next year commercially rented snowmobiles would have to have four-stroke engines, which are said to be quieter and less polluting. Private snowmobile owners could use traditional two-cycle engines until the 2004-2005 winter season.


No more than 950 snowmobiles would be allowed into Yellowstone National Park: 550 through the West entrance and 50 through the North entrance, both in Montana; and 250 through the South entrance and 100 through the East entrance, both in Wyoming.

Another 75 would be allowed into Grand Teton National Park through a snowmobile trail along the Continental Divide and 75 more from a road along the Rockefeller parkway.

The Interior Department officials said their plan is based on a belief that four-stroke engines can significantly cut noise and reduce emissions of hydrocarbons by 90 percent and carbon monoxide by 70 percent.

They left open the possibility of adjusting the caps based on results from air quality and noise monitoring stations that will be installed in the parks. University and state contractors will be hired to collect data on air quality, noise and the effect on wildlife.

"This plan, in essence, stays away from the extremes," said Eric Ruff, an Interior Department spokesman. "It strikes a good balance. It protects resources and allows visitors a unique experience. It's never been managed like this before."

The Environmental Protection Agency (news - web sites) recommended in 1999 that snowmobiles be barred from the two parks as the "best available protection" for air quality, wildlife and the health of people who work and visit there. The Interior Department advanced that idea in the waning days of President Clinton (news - web sites)'s tenure.

The Bush administration ordered a new review as part of a settlement with snowmobile makers who challenged the proposed ban. The EPA softened is opposition to the recreational vehicles this year, saying federal clean air standards could be met with newer machines that use stricter pollution controls.
 

MrLuckey

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I don't believe that article has much to do with 2-strokes. Its about snowmobiles (many of which are now 4-strokes). The EPA is pushing ahead with 2-stroke demise plans.

Also referring to the article - apparently a lot of local economy is going to be hurt by this "compromise". Its not the worst that could happen but its a far cry from the best also.

off-road enthusiasts are still losing here - maybe just an inch instead of a foot.

Analyze this for a minute:
"The Bush administration plans to allow more snowmobiles in Yellowstone and Grand Teton national parks on average, while cutting numbers on the busiest days."

So on a day when the normal average # of snowmobilers that showed up would only be 600 - the new rule will ALLOW say 1100...... Uhhhhh there will still only be 600..........you could ALLOW 50,000 but the same 600 are still the only ones there...

Now then - On a day when the normal average would be 1,600 - they are cutting it to 1,100...... So 500 people are denied entrance.

Somebody explain to me how this is a good thing?

They are increasing the # of snowmobiles ALLOWED in but decreasing the ACTUAL # allowed in - if that makes any sense.
 
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IrishEKU

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Eddie, good points.

Just to add something, ever figure the numbers of cars that go through there every year? IMO I don't think you will ever see the decrease in the traffic. That is where most of the money comes from and therfore the need to not reduce those numbers. By bowing to the greenies and restricting acsess he is throwing a bone to both sides. Since I don't live up North anymore, it's really a moot point for me to comment on snowmobiles, but my concerns lie with recreational vehicle use, this is the start, it sets a precident for certain folks to jump on board and start pushing for the limiting or restriction of OHV use in certain areas.
 

Ford-PSD

Uhhh...
Oct 22, 2002
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How about he just allows Clinton's plan to go through and there will be ZERO snowmobiles allowed in the state of Colorado. Maybe that would make everyone happy.
 

Okiewan

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Political posts are fine as long as they apply to land use issues. Keep it civil.
 

CanadianRidr

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Eddie I don't think most new snowmobiles are four strokes. I could be wrong, but pretty much all of the new sleds are still two strokes, minus the new Yammy. :thumb:
 
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WoodsRider

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For years the snowmobile community has tooted it's horn that their machines don't churn up the land like those "evil" dirtbikes and ATV's. This may cut the mustard with some groups, but not the green advocacy groups (GAGs). In this case they abandon their typical "tearing up the earth" and "promoting massive erosion" arguments and go after the increased "deadly emission" levels along with the typical "excessive noise" argument.

The GAGs are not willing to compromise. They want to stop motorized recreation on all public lands and have control over it on private land as well. We can argue the point all we want amongst ourselves, but it only shows how divided we are. We need to stand together and work out these issues through compromise. We also need to promote responsible off-road vehicle recreation and show the general public that we are not the destructive satanic forces that the GAGs claim we are.

Convincing the general public that we are responsible will go along way to give us the political and financial clout we need to fight the GAGs in Washington and in the courts. If you don't believe me, just look at the NRA.
 

XRpredator

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If only we could make the BRC as powerful as the NRA . . .

It's gonna take all of us, though.
 

MrLuckey

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Well I guess I should have said that most of the new rental machines in the area are 4-strokes. Those places have seen the future and are steadily replacing their stables with 4-strokes.

I sure wasn't bashing Bush but the 'compromise' which I hate to call a victory sure seems to be giving up a lot. Once you lose it, its very hard to get back. Their supposed increase for 'allowed' snowmobilers doesn't do a thing if there are normally only 600 on those days. It will cut back on the heavier use days, thats why I think it will cut down on use overall.

The numbers they are throwing out are only thoretical maximums that will be allowed, not actual people out there enjoying their hobby.
 

BSWIFT

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Originally posted by WoodsRider

Convincing the general public that we are responsible will go along way to give us the political and financial clout we need to fight the GAGs in Washington and in the courts. If you don't believe me, just look at the NRA.
Dirtweek is as good a start as anything else that I have seen.
 

mx547

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in a somewhat related note: there is an article in the new ama magazine that attempts to explain the affect of the epa restrictions on two-strokes in 2006.
 

2smoke

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Sep 21, 2001
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MX547 you got a link to that one. We dont get too many AMA mags to read down here!!......errrr........actually Ive never seen one.....
 

Jeff Gilbert

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Originally posted by Ford-PSD
Also, beginning next year commercially rented snowmobiles would have to have four-stroke engines, which are said to be quieter and less polluting.
I don't know squat about snowmobiles but if the above applies to motorcycles, which I'm sure it would, I don't know where they get "quieter" from. I mentioned to one of my customers at work the other day about riding m/c at a track close to where he said he plays golf and he said that the homes near the golf coarse were having trouble being sold because of the noise from the races. He said that the loud deep roar of motors was all they heard, never the 2 stroke sounds. I suppose if you stuck a db meter up the poop-shute of a 2 stroke it may be louder but since the sound is more of a higher pitch frequency the sound disapates quickly and doesn't travel as far. The lower frequency of a 4 stroke will echo a long way.
 

firecracker22

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Oct 23, 2000
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Arctic Cat builds a four-stroke trail sled (might even be called the Yellowstone Special or something) but it is slow, heavy, and crappy, like comparing a KLR 650 to a CRF 450. But riding in Yellowstone is not like riding at your local mountain . . . there are speed limits, you're not allowed off trail, and the "trails" are the roads they run the groomer down. So it's all about taking pictures not riding hard. Personally I have no desire even to go.

I think Bush is on our side more than Clinton was . . . rather than picking him apart let's be happy that he reversed that particular battle and hope he continues to make similar decisions.
 

Tony Eeds

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Jun 9, 2002
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Originally posted by TTRGuy
I sure wasn't bashing Bush but the 'compromise' which I hate to call a victory sure seems to be giving up a lot. Once you lose it, its very hard to get back. Their supposed increase for 'allowed' snowmobilers doesn't do a thing if there are normally only 600 on those days. It will cut back on the heavier use days, thats why I think it will cut down on use overall.

The numbers they are throwing out are only thoretical maximums that will be allowed, not actual people out there enjoying their hobby.

I don't want to confuse the issue, but there has been a quota system in place in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area for a long time and the people that enjoy the BWCA are constantly having an ongoing battle with the GAGs to keep the wilderness open. You would be hard pressed to find a more benign use of the wilderness than canoeing.

DO NOT EVER confuse a RESTRICTION or QUOTA as a victory for our side.

IMHO, GAGs will not be happy until they are the only ones that can enjoy the wilderness. Seeing that most of the are pantywaist do-gooders will never leave their fossil fuel heated houses to lay their pretty little pin heads on the less than pristine dirt they are trying to protect; I can’t, for the life of me, figure out why they are so fascist in their view. Maybe they are just jealous that SOMEBODY in this world is having fun. They do seem to be overly bitter at the rest of us.

Brian is correct - DW is a good start. We need to get more local media coverage next year. Fried Chicken, BBQ, Mom, Apple Pie and Scoots!
Whoo Hooo !!!!!! :thumb:
 

MrLuckey

Fire Marshall Ed
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Originally posted by firecracker22
I think Bush is on our side more than Clinton was . . . rather than picking him apart let's be happy that he reversed that particular battle and hope he continues to make similar decisions.

I don't think anyone is picking him apart in the least bit. I do NOT hope he makes similar decisions because I do NOT see the 'compromise' as a victory. Call me greedy or whatever but the way I see it every 'compromise' takes a little more away from us - we don't have much more to give :(
 

WoodsRider

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Learn to compromise or kiss it all goodbye. In the meantime work at swinging public opinion to our side. Promote the positive values of our sport and yank out the weeds.
 

Rooster

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Yellowstone is not like riding at your local mountain . . . there are speed limits, you're not allowed off trail, and the "trails" are the roads they run the groomer down

:p Do you also obey the speed limit on every road you drive your car on?!!! :eek: :p

Yellowstone can be as boring or as fun as you make it. :yeehaw: Just don't get caught!

I know, I know, bending the rules isn't the right thing to do, but the vast majority of sledders I see when I'm there either can't read or don't see the speed limits. So, when in Rome.......
 

Tony Eeds

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Jun 9, 2002
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Originally posted by WoodsRider
Learn to compromise or kiss it all goodbye. In the meantime work at swinging public opinion to our side. Promote the positive values of our sport and yank out the weeds.

I agree, except that GAGs will only compromise when they are shown to be the fools that they are (at some levels). They are receiving a lot of bad press recently for their positions regarding forests. We need to keep issues like this on the front pages of the papers, and keep the debate going (stir the poo, if you will). GAGs are masters at making anyone wanting to even damage a leaf in the wilderness into a bad guy in the press.

They have got to be exposed for what they are and we (all people that enjoy the outdoors) will have to band together to form a unified front. We also have to promote the healthy aspects of being able to get out into the wilderness.

WoodsRider - The state of NY just opened a new canoe trail in the Adirondacks over the objections of the GAGs. It can be done, but like someone said earlier, we have got to quit fighting among ourselves.

As a side note, read about Super Hunky's fight with the BLM in Monkey Butt. It is an interesting perspective on the current situation.

Tony
 

WoodsRider

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... GAGs will only compromise when they are shown to be the fools that they are (at some levels).
Exactly! :thumb:
Remember, the compromises that we make are not with the GAGs, but with the various government agencies (USFS, BLM, US Fish & Wildlife, DEC) responsible for managing public land. We need to work at getting the support of these agancies to further our cause.
 

johnpace2

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Dec 5, 2000
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Do snowmobiles have any type of exhaust cleaner system? (catalytic converter)

I don't why this would be a big deal on such a large machine? The weight factor seems to be a non-issue.

I recall seeing various news programs discussing this Yellowstone issue and they show clips of packs of snowmobiles just smoking away... Very bad for public perception...
 

Ford-PSD

Uhhh...
Oct 22, 2002
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Hey Guys,

I just posted this for information purposes, not for the intent for any type of bashing. I just think George Bush has a different opinion for us than what Clinton had. I just hope he choses in 06 to favor us two strokers and I still am not looking foward to purchasing a 4 stroke when I love my 2 stroke.

The funnies thing I saw with Bush was when the Russia president was visiting G.W. on his ranch and was given a tour in his Ford F350 4x4 PSD instead of some limo.
 

WoodsRider

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The revised EPA regulations do not completely ban all two-strokes. Nor do they ban the application of two-stroke technology. They call for lower limits in the amount of HC, CO and NOx emissions. There are a few current four-stroke off-road motorcycles that will be affected by these revised limits too. ;)
 

Rooster

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johnpace - most snowmobiles are high performance machines, with the same type of exhaust as a dirt bike, only larger. They do come from the factory with a massive silencer and intake silencer, but putting a converter on them would be as practical as putting one on your bike. Weight is certainly an issue, just like it is with bikes, and to be quite honest, there is no room under my hood to put something like that on. I've been in those packs that you saw clips of, and yes it is bad, but it isn't any different than having a pack of bikes all running the track a the same time. The clips you saw were the worst case I have ever seen, and used specifically for leverage against the snowmobile community. It's kind of like how they go and photo the deepest, nasties most eroded rut they can find and use that as the cover for what all dirt bikes do to the land. It's nothing more than the GAG's slanting the view to make themselves look better.

My 700 cc sled is actually no louder than most dirt bikes, including mine, but that is all factory exhaust. Start putting performance expansion chambers and aftemarket silencers on them and they get extremely loud.
 

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