trials tire on KDX?

[julien_d]

So, last trip riding it was very rocky/muddy/slick and my old rear tire had it's last good run. By the end of the day I was having major traction problem. A little inspection found that I'd lost a good many of the lugs. The tire was aged and hardened and just couldn't hang, although it looked new just a couple rides ago.

I also lost a couple teeth from my badly worn rear sprocket. I have ordered a 12t front and 48t rear sprocket, along with the oil seals to fix my water pump leaking into the tranny. I have been reading a lot lately about the rear trials tire craze for trail riding and am very interested. Unfortunately I can't drop for the mitch x11, but I have been looking at the pirelli MT43. Apparantly the pirelli is a bias ply tire, not radial like most of the true trials tires, so it has a stiffer sidewall and does better in the wear dept and also better at high speeds than the radial trials tires. Basically, it's a trials tire designed for the rear of a trail bike rather than a true trials tire. It's been getting some pretty rave reviews from what I've seen, and I think I may be ready to give it a shot.

Here's the tire in question....

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.co...=80003&zmam=88421133&zmas=1&zmac=2&zmap=11015

Here's a pretty decent trials tire review and comparison including the pirelli

http://www.dirtrider.com/features/141_0705_trials_tire_comparison/dunlop.html


Any thoughts?

J.

 

[OLHILLBILLY]

The trials tire of choice here seems to be the Dunlop. Great traction on anything hardpacked, wet or dry. But I've heard mixed reviews, some people love trials tires, some don't.
Something you'd probably have to try for yourself to know for sure.

 

[sr5bidder]

I want one but I want a spare rear rim so I can flip flop.

Julien you could have knocked the side of the case off with that worn rear sprocket trick you could get a steel one pretty reasonably and also I'm jealous you seem to get to ride much more than I do.

O-well I'm going tomorrow to pick up a vw sandrail so I can hual my bike on top and look all bad azz

 

[julien_d]

Yeah. I didn't notice how worn the sprocket was until about 2 hours into the ride last time. Not taking it back out until I get that fixed.

With my riding style I think a trials tire will be perfect. I love being able to go as slow as I want UP a hill. That's just good fun. Of course, I like to hammer on it a bit too, that's why I was looking towards the pirelli. It seems to handle speed better than most trials tires.


J.

 

[stevewr450f]

I use a michelin trials tire. Also, got a cheap rear wheel assembly from ebay so its easy to quickly change back and forth between the two tires. Really like trials tire when its gets dry and rocky. A trials tire does not bite as much going into corners and it can also wash out when descending on wet muddy stuff. But its a nice weapon in your tool box to use occassionally. Would recommend it.

 

[lemmy]

A friend tried a rear trials tire on his crf250 and he didn't like it. he felt like it made the front push too much in turns.

 

[OLHILLBILLY]

A friend tried a rear trials tire on his crf250 and he didn't like it. he felt like it made the front push too much in turns.

That's what my buddy was saying. Trials tire hooked up so well it was over riding the front. But he loves it.

 

[OLHILLBILLY]

O-well I'm going tomorrow to pick up a vw sandrail so I can hual my bike on top and look all bad azz

We'll be needin' a picture of that. :laugh:

 

[mudpack]

Just remember, trials riders use trials tires...not because they give superior traction....but because knobbies are not allowed in observed trials. I guarantee that if trials competitors could use knobbies, they would.
Considering the type of terrain you ride on/in (rocky/muddy/slick), a trials tire would be a poor all-around choice. But, you'll have to find out for yourself.

PS I'd get a radial over a bias ply...it will conform to rocky terrain better.

 

[Tom68]

Just remember, trials riders use trials tires...not because they give superior traction....but because knobbies are not allowed in observed trials. I guarantee that if trials competitors could use knobbies, they would.
Considering the type of terrain you ride on/in (rocky/muddy/slick), a trials tire would be a poor all-around choice. But, you'll have to find out for yourself.

PS I'd get a radial over a bias ply...it will conform to rocky terrain better.

The American trials team used knobbys in europe in the 70's, the europeans didn't think it was an advantage for them. As posted earier the trials tyre is not as grippy locked into a turn, and it only gives good drive while your lugging it if you get aggresive they spin up. The D803 tears the knobs off fairly easily. I'll keep mine for dirt track because a trials tyre is all I'm allowed to run.

 

[julien_d]

Just remember, trials riders use trials tires...not because they give superior traction....but because knobbies are not allowed in observed trials. I guarantee that if trials competitors could use knobbies, they would.
Considering the type of terrain you ride on/in (rocky/muddy/slick), a trials tire would be a poor all-around choice. But, you'll have to find out for yourself.

PS I'd get a radial over a bias ply...it will conform to rocky terrain better.

I'm gonna guess you never ran one. Every single review I've read, and i've read many in the past week, gives the exact opposite idea. In everything but deep mud, traction is greatly improved over a knobby.

here's an example..
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/392/1963/Motorcycle-Article/Pirelli-MT-43-Pro-Trials-Tire-Review.aspx

I'll find out for myself though, since I just ordered the pirelli MT43. I went with the pirelli BECAUSE it's bias and not radial. I don't want to deal with pinch flats. The bias ply works better on the heavier trail bikes becuase of the stiffer sidewalls and slightly harder compound. If I was actually running a trials bike, then I wouldn't even consider the pirelli.

 

[mudpack]

I'm gonna guess you never ran one....I ran plenty of them decades ago, when I couldn't afford to replace them with real dirt tires. They didn't impress me then, and they don't impress me now..
In everything but deep mud, traction is greatly improved over a knobby....I suppose that's why all the ISDT, GN, Supercross, Statiumcross, and motocross riders use trials tires. I guess I learn something new every day?

As I said, trials tires have their place...just not on my bikes.

Mud

 

[OLHILLBILLY]

I may have to try one at the next tire replace just to see what they are about. But that may be a while as I just got new tires. :)

 

[julien_d]

As I said, trials tires have their place...just not on my bikes.

Mud

right on. I'm old, and I ride slow. I love tractor pullin up rocky hills and such. It does get slick muddy around here at times, but for the most part the trails stay 90% dry and hard, lots of rocks and roots everwhere. I think the tire will suit my needs, and for the price I just had to give it a shot. I had to have a new tire regardless.

I'll some pics, info and perhaps a video out after I get it fitted.


J.

 

[mudpack]

Love to see that vid, d.

Mud

 

[julien_d]

I can't wait to get it put on. Hopefully next weekend I'll have the bike out with the new gearing and new tire. :). I may pick up another rim to install a soft terrain knobby on, this way when I go out in deep muddy conditions I can be prepared.

J.

 

[mudpack]

Every single review I've read, and i've read many in the past week, gives the exact opposite idea. In everything but deep mud, traction is greatly improved over a knobby.

here's an example..
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/392/1963/Motorcycle-Article/Pirelli-MT-43-Pro-Trials-Tire-Review.aspx

I just took the time to read that review.
Here's a synopsis of it:

Highs
DOT-legal
Better suited for "general" off-roading (I guess that doesn't include serious off-roading/trail riding??)
Affordable

Lows
Not as sticky as competiton tires (read; does not have the traction of a knobby??)
Not enough people using them!

So, what I get from that piece is that their advantage is that they are road-legal and cheap, but with less traction...not that they yield superior (to a full-on knob) results for the advanced rider in the dirt. Am I reading that right?
For a dual-sport rider, they may be the best option. But for the dirt rider who trailers/trucks his bike to the dirt, the true knobby should continue to be your first consideration. That's my opinion, after over forty years of riding and racing dirt and of watching others do the same.

Mud

 

[julien_d]

Nope. they are comparing the pirelli to competition trials tires such as the mich x-11 and dunlop 804 in the comment "not as sticky as competition tires". The lower environmental impact should be considered as well, since trials tires don't roost. The one thing that every single review has in common is MUCH improved traction in most conditions over a knobby. Deep mud being the only condition where this isn't true, and most say in those conditions the trials tire does as well or nearly as well as a knobby.

J.

 

[julien_d]

Here's just a couple examples. I have yet to find a review from someone with actual trail use on a trials tire to have a negative comment, other than the shakiness at speed. The pirelli does not seem to suffer this due to stiffer sidewalls, but gives up a tiny bit in traction compared to the mich x-11 or dunlop trials tires for the same reason. The one thing in common in all of these reviews is insane traction. Most say they feel like they're "cheating".

http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=679933&highlight=mt43

http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=674250&highlight=mt43

http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=692245&highlight=mt43

http://www.woodsracer.com/portal/forums/showthread.php?t=7972

http://www.gasgasrider.org/html/trials_tire_test.html

http://kdxrider.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5966&highlight=mt43

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=418915

 

[mudpack]

The one thing that every single review has in common is MUCH improved traction in most conditions over a knobby. Deep mud being the only condition where this isn't true, and most say in those conditions the trials tire does as well or nearly as well as a knobby. J.

I'm still skeptical. Do you have any links to these reviews?
I'd like to read the context for this for myself...
Everything I've ever seen with my own eyes, or experienced in my own riding runs counter to what you are saying. The only places I'd expect a trials-type tire to give superior bite (over a knobby) would be on pavement or 'blue-groove" hardpack...or on a similar surface like rocks the size of houses or Volkswagen roofs. :)

Okay, just read your links. I'm wondering just how fast these riders are. Are they on a level approaching Carmichael, Stewart, Burleson, Roeseler, etc. Or are they local riders who are riding on very limited terrain? I did notice that much of where they report good results are hardpack, rocky, rooted, etc....areas where knobbies are at their worst. So, there just may be some application for this type of tire.
I'll tell you this: I couldn't get one mile in the riverbottoms I ride in with a trials tire...I'd have a heart attack from pushing.

 

[julien_d]

I'm still skeptical. Do you have any links to these reviews?
I'd like to read the context for this for myself...
Everything I've ever seen with my own eyes, or experienced in my own riding runs counter to what you are saying. The only places I'd expect a trials-type tire to give superior bite (over a knobby) would be on pavement or 'blue-groove" hardpack...or on a similar surface like rocks the size of houses or Volkswagen roofs. :)

Don't worry, I am skeptical as well! Fads like this seem to get blown out of proportion very easily on the net, as we all know. However, I was interested enough to at least give it a shot. Some of the reviews I posted above are quite good. The last one is specifically about the MT43.

My understanding is that the flexibility of the carcass allows it to wrap around anything at all that happens to be sticking out of the ground, or the surface of the ground itself. The contact patch is huge!

Edit-

I like this one a lot. Check out the vid in the 1st post. You can imagine what happens running over roots, small rocks, gravel, etc.

http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=259375&highlight=trials+tire

 

[mudpack]

Saw the vid. Okay, so you have a tire at 4 1/2 psi running over a golf ball. I couldn't run 4 1/2 psi in my tires ...trials or knobby... they'd be flat from pinched tubes and the wheels would be dented beyond use inside of ten minutes.
Trials riders CAN use extremely low pressure, since they are going but a few miles an hour when they hit objects.
If your idea of trail riding involves the speeds shown in that video, then trials tires may be the best for you. I really have learned something here. :cool:

 

[julien_d]

Man, you are just dead set against it, huh? That's cool with me, I just have a hard time understanding why people try so hard to deny the qualities of something they never tried. Even more so when taking into account hundreds of positive opinions on the item in question. Like I said, i've yet to find a negative opinion from a rider who is running trials on the rear. Perhaps it's a large conspiracy to make us all crappier riders!

Regardless, I'll find out soon enough how it works for me. Of course I won't be running the pressure as low as the video. The pirelli is also more designed for trail riding with a stiffer sidewall to help prevent pinch flats. I plan on starting around 10psi, and see what it feels like. I'm waiting on some other parts. Hopefully if everything shows up this week I'll get the bike out to brushy mtn saturday. Weather shows cool and sunny, that's all the reason I need to get out in the woods!

I can't see the point of arguing it with you, since neither of us has personal experience with a trials tire. I'll know soon enough what I think of it though. :)

 

[mudpack]

Okay, I hear ya'.

 

[mudpack]

I can't see the point of arguing it with you, since neither of us has personal experience with a trials tire. I'll know soon enough....

You may not have had personal experience with trials tires, I have had lots of experience with them. I guess that's what I've been trying to say: in MY experience with them since the 1960's, in the dirt, they always have fallen short of the performance given by a knobby dirt tire. Always.
As I said earlier (several times), they may be a great tire for particular rider in a particular application, but I would never be so bold as to declare them generally superior

In everything but deep mud, traction is greatly improved over a knobby.

to a knobby in the dirt.
I hope they work out wonderfully for you....sincerely. :cool: