Engine Ice? or Engine Hotter
- Thread starter old#48
- Start date
ride_red_15
Uhhh...
- Oct 14, 2001
- 575
- 0
i think Rich has a problem with EVERYONE. I've tried to make suggestions before just to be shot down by mr expert up there...not all of us are perfect like you seem to be
EngIceDave
Member
- Nov 2, 2001
- 28
- 0
There was a test report from a well respected race team...
I replied to comments about our product, that must not be allowed...unless the reply meets some type of standard that you set.
We're not the only company that lets our results on the track speak for the results of our product...look at Pro-Circuit, FMF, Pro Action and many others....they let their on track performance and championships speak for itself, we're not allowed the same?
One of your sponsors, Service Honda, just ordered a SUBSTANTIAL amount to be the OFFICIAL coolant product in the Service Honda AF500 for 2003 because it works for them...Keeps the temps down in their bikes, is that not a peer review or independent evaluation? How about Transworld Motocross Magazine (Which we do not advertise in, never have) giving a positive review on the product tested in a CRF450R and saying it works? Is that an independent review?
That's fine. I try not to spam, only participate, but when I hear of or see a thread that makes inaccurate statements, I respond and I defend. If it comes off as spam, my apologies. The last time this happened was well over a year ago in a similar situation. I respect your "no spam" policies, I do not come to this forum and start threads "spamming" our product or to visit our site. If defending is bad, it's bad for everyone because threads will be one sided without the benefit of a differing view or the view of the manufacturer.
We NEVER say anything negative about our competitors, we acknowledge that they all make fine products that work. Each just has varying benefits and drawbacks.
By the tone of your replies, you obviously have a burr in your bonnet and no matter what is said, it is unsatisfactory.
I replied to comments about our product, that must not be allowed...unless the reply meets some type of standard that you set.
We're not the only company that lets our results on the track speak for the results of our product...look at Pro-Circuit, FMF, Pro Action and many others....they let their on track performance and championships speak for itself, we're not allowed the same?
One of your sponsors, Service Honda, just ordered a SUBSTANTIAL amount to be the OFFICIAL coolant product in the Service Honda AF500 for 2003 because it works for them...Keeps the temps down in their bikes, is that not a peer review or independent evaluation? How about Transworld Motocross Magazine (Which we do not advertise in, never have) giving a positive review on the product tested in a CRF450R and saying it works? Is that an independent review?
That's fine. I try not to spam, only participate, but when I hear of or see a thread that makes inaccurate statements, I respond and I defend. If it comes off as spam, my apologies. The last time this happened was well over a year ago in a similar situation. I respect your "no spam" policies, I do not come to this forum and start threads "spamming" our product or to visit our site. If defending is bad, it's bad for everyone because threads will be one sided without the benefit of a differing view or the view of the manufacturer.
We NEVER say anything negative about our competitors, we acknowledge that they all make fine products that work. Each just has varying benefits and drawbacks.
By the tone of your replies, you obviously have a burr in your bonnet and no matter what is said, it is unsatisfactory.
This is like talking to a little kid. HE SAID, SHE SAID recommendations does not constitute VALID TEST DATA.
I personally couldn't care less if everyone in the free world buys your product and is overjoyed with it, you still don't get to SPAM out here by posting a list of users or any other back handed spam.
Members can say they are happy with your product all they want, but you as the Owner of the company can't come out here and post press releases pretending to be helpful.
The "burr in my bonnet" is your complete avoidance of showing us some REAL TEST DATA to back up your optimistic claims.
PROVE ME WRONG, but make it happen with something substantial. Not some half-baked "test" where some chucklehead sticks a temperture sensetive sticker on the outside of a water jacket in free flowing air and claims a temperature difference becuase he dumped your product in the radiator. Show me some repeatable tests where water temps are accurately measured (internally) over a period of time under controlled conditions, and compare THAT to the competition and you might get some respect out here. Until then IMHO you are just a marketing guy who is overcharging for a bottle full of chemicals with no proof they do anything different.
After chatting/emailing with a number of people over the last year about your product it's clear to me that there as many people out there who were unimpressed with the product as you claim are happy with it.
FWIW - The guys I talked to at Nalco Chemical think you are an absolute GENIUS for convincing racers that your collection of chemicals is worth the exorbitant price you charge. FYI, they KNOW it's all marketing fluff too :)
I personally couldn't care less if everyone in the free world buys your product and is overjoyed with it, you still don't get to SPAM out here by posting a list of users or any other back handed spam.
Members can say they are happy with your product all they want, but you as the Owner of the company can't come out here and post press releases pretending to be helpful.
The "burr in my bonnet" is your complete avoidance of showing us some REAL TEST DATA to back up your optimistic claims.
PROVE ME WRONG, but make it happen with something substantial. Not some half-baked "test" where some chucklehead sticks a temperture sensetive sticker on the outside of a water jacket in free flowing air and claims a temperature difference becuase he dumped your product in the radiator. Show me some repeatable tests where water temps are accurately measured (internally) over a period of time under controlled conditions, and compare THAT to the competition and you might get some respect out here. Until then IMHO you are just a marketing guy who is overcharging for a bottle full of chemicals with no proof they do anything different.
After chatting/emailing with a number of people over the last year about your product it's clear to me that there as many people out there who were unimpressed with the product as you claim are happy with it.
FWIW - The guys I talked to at Nalco Chemical think you are an absolute GENIUS for convincing racers that your collection of chemicals is worth the exorbitant price you charge. FYI, they KNOW it's all marketing fluff too :)
EngIceDave
Member
- Nov 2, 2001
- 28
- 0
Fine, whatever.
You have no idea what your talking about with your "half-baked "test" where some chucklehead sticks a temperture sensetive sticker on the outside of a water jacket in free flowing air and claims a temperature difference."
No matter what we show, no matter what we prove...your mind is made up...and you're wrong.
Pro-Circuit, FMF, Pro Action and many other companies use on-track results and championships to prove their products work, but somehow we're not allowed the same.
Several of your sponsors make money on our product which they in-turn give to you. I guess you think the guys at Service Honda, your sponsor, are pretty stupid too huh? They've had good test results, but according to you, it isn't possible...you think well of the public and your sponsors.
You have no idea what your talking about with your "half-baked "test" where some chucklehead sticks a temperture sensetive sticker on the outside of a water jacket in free flowing air and claims a temperature difference."
No matter what we show, no matter what we prove...your mind is made up...and you're wrong.
Pro-Circuit, FMF, Pro Action and many other companies use on-track results and championships to prove their products work, but somehow we're not allowed the same.
Several of your sponsors make money on our product which they in-turn give to you. I guess you think the guys at Service Honda, your sponsor, are pretty stupid too huh? They've had good test results, but according to you, it isn't possible...you think well of the public and your sponsors.
- Thread starter
- #33
All I've ever heard is talk about coolant temp reduction, not about the actual engine parts themselves.
In my opinion, the testing would need to show the temperature data for the cylinder, cylinder head, AND the coolant for EngineIce, propylene glycol 50/50 in distilled water, and ethylene glycol 50/50 in distilled water.
It would also be the most convincing if it was performed by an independent lab.
In my opinion, the testing would need to show the temperature data for the cylinder, cylinder head, AND the coolant for EngineIce, propylene glycol 50/50 in distilled water, and ethylene glycol 50/50 in distilled water.
It would also be the most convincing if it was performed by an independent lab.
I love the guys at Service Honda like family, but AJ knows I'd hold him to the same standards as you if he were posting the way you have.
I'm done. You are just avoiding the specific requests for technical verification with silly fluff posts. Market to your heart's content, you're just wasting my/our time.
Dave, stop using pipes as an example. Too many times I have seen dyno test data to compare pipe performances. Granted not as many times as I've seen a pimple face kid exclaim that the PC pipe made his bike rip, or an MXA test rider (read: failed mx'er) who poses for the picture while the highly trained technical staff at MXA spouts off claims directed at the money.
- Dec 26, 1999
- 19,774
- 0
Cut from E.I. site:
Test Report from Mike Cope Racing
Introduction:
On March 24, 2002 the American Speed Association season opener was run at the 3/4-mile oval USA International Speedway in Lakeland, Florida. This was the first time Engine Ice coolant was used in a Mike Cope racing vehicle.
Test Parameters:
The engine was a GM Voretc ASA 5.7 liter V-8. This engine is a slightly modified version of the stock Corvette LS-1 motor. The cooling system holds 1.3 gallons and non diluted Engine Ice was used.
The temperature of ambient air at Lakeland on test day was averaging 85F. Track temperature was 105°F at 1:30PM. The weather consisted of strong sun with increased cloud cover towards late afternoon. A baseline temperature of 200ºF was used as a comparison coolant temperature based on a previous test conducted two weeks prior with an ambient temperature of 75ºF.
The test was conducted during practice, qualifying and the race.
Feedback:
Engine Ice immediately reduced coolant temperature to 185ºF during the first outing. This was a 15ºF reduction from the baseline coolant temperature. With the success of the product it was determined that a full taped configuration could be utilized during qualifying. ALL airflow to the radiator was blocked off to allow for more downforce. In 3 laps (2.25 miles), the coolant temperature only reached 205ºF.
During the race, the radiator was allowed airflow and the temperature the entire day of the 200-lap race remained at 200ºF.
Conclusion:
Engine Ice proved to be an effective performance enhancement on the #25 Florida Auto Auction car. The reduction in coolant temperature was noticeable from the first run and continued consistently throughout the two-day test. The results obtained in qualifying with airflow completely blocked and during the race in heavy traffic were exceptional. Engine Ice will be utilized by Mike Cope Racing for the rest of the season to give us the performance advantage over our competition.
Report Prepared By:
Cameron Kerr
Race Engineer
Mike Cope Racing
I personally don't understand how an established baseline of 200F and a race temp of 200F constitutes the claimed 50F drop the product yields. Maybe that was only in motorcycle engines? I don't see anyplace where it says which bike, what conditions, or really ANYTHING. Additionally considering that many automakers are trying to make cars more aerodynamic and reduced frontal openings are part of that why would they not be all over this? There seems to be many potential high profile uses such as F1 where a napkin on the radiator can cause overheating, why have they not investigated and used the product?
I honestly would LOVE to see significant drops in coolant temps by the product. I would go buy enough to fill my project car if the proof was really there but I don't see hard facts just opinion.
Oh and BTW the ASTM D5216 standard has been withdrawn (i.e. no longer exists).
Test Report from Mike Cope Racing
Introduction:
On March 24, 2002 the American Speed Association season opener was run at the 3/4-mile oval USA International Speedway in Lakeland, Florida. This was the first time Engine Ice coolant was used in a Mike Cope racing vehicle.
Test Parameters:
The engine was a GM Voretc ASA 5.7 liter V-8. This engine is a slightly modified version of the stock Corvette LS-1 motor. The cooling system holds 1.3 gallons and non diluted Engine Ice was used.
The temperature of ambient air at Lakeland on test day was averaging 85F. Track temperature was 105°F at 1:30PM. The weather consisted of strong sun with increased cloud cover towards late afternoon. A baseline temperature of 200ºF was used as a comparison coolant temperature based on a previous test conducted two weeks prior with an ambient temperature of 75ºF.
The test was conducted during practice, qualifying and the race.
Feedback:
Engine Ice immediately reduced coolant temperature to 185ºF during the first outing. This was a 15ºF reduction from the baseline coolant temperature. With the success of the product it was determined that a full taped configuration could be utilized during qualifying. ALL airflow to the radiator was blocked off to allow for more downforce. In 3 laps (2.25 miles), the coolant temperature only reached 205ºF.
During the race, the radiator was allowed airflow and the temperature the entire day of the 200-lap race remained at 200ºF.
Conclusion:
Engine Ice proved to be an effective performance enhancement on the #25 Florida Auto Auction car. The reduction in coolant temperature was noticeable from the first run and continued consistently throughout the two-day test. The results obtained in qualifying with airflow completely blocked and during the race in heavy traffic were exceptional. Engine Ice will be utilized by Mike Cope Racing for the rest of the season to give us the performance advantage over our competition.
Report Prepared By:
Cameron Kerr
Race Engineer
Mike Cope Racing
I personally don't understand how an established baseline of 200F and a race temp of 200F constitutes the claimed 50F drop the product yields. Maybe that was only in motorcycle engines? I don't see anyplace where it says which bike, what conditions, or really ANYTHING. Additionally considering that many automakers are trying to make cars more aerodynamic and reduced frontal openings are part of that why would they not be all over this? There seems to be many potential high profile uses such as F1 where a napkin on the radiator can cause overheating, why have they not investigated and used the product?
I honestly would LOVE to see significant drops in coolant temps by the product. I would go buy enough to fill my project car if the proof was really there but I don't see hard facts just opinion.
Oh and BTW the ASTM D5216 standard has been withdrawn (i.e. no longer exists).
EngIceDave
Member
- Nov 2, 2001
- 28
- 0
Not sure if I am allowed to reply...But, here goes.
All we have ever said is that it'll reduce temperatures By as much as 50oF ...not everyone will get the same results. Most realize a reduction of about 15-20oF. You will NEVER find anything ever written or put out by us claiming an increase in HP or that every machine will drop 50oF. Results vary quite a bit.
The racecar you're referring to was in heavy traffic (tucked behind other cars in minimal airflow). As for your question about other car teams using it...we have lots using it, I had that in the post that was pulled. Racecars in NASCAR, ARCA, ASA and Hooter's Pro Cup are using it or presently testing it.
No spam...just answering the man's questions.
Oh, BTW - Pro Circuit and FMF make a lot more than pipes.
All we have ever said is that it'll reduce temperatures By as much as 50oF ...not everyone will get the same results. Most realize a reduction of about 15-20oF. You will NEVER find anything ever written or put out by us claiming an increase in HP or that every machine will drop 50oF. Results vary quite a bit.
The racecar you're referring to was in heavy traffic (tucked behind other cars in minimal airflow). As for your question about other car teams using it...we have lots using it, I had that in the post that was pulled. Racecars in NASCAR, ARCA, ASA and Hooter's Pro Cup are using it or presently testing it.
No spam...just answering the man's questions.
Oh, BTW - Pro Circuit and FMF make a lot more than pipes.
- Dec 26, 1999
- 19,774
- 0
So their baseline was just a WAG? Generally a baseline is an established "norm" with all results + or - the baseline given the same conditions.
I realize your in the business to sell the product but the blurbs "by as much as 50F" splashed about just come across as a bit excessive. If you were to state "typical reductions of 15-20F are seen and reductions of 50F are possible." it might be a little less stressful backing it up without hard numbers. A graphical comparison of plain water, std. coolant, product WW, and E.I. operating under the same conditions done by an independant lab would be interesting to see also.
I have used Redline's product in my project car and the real world difference was -15F in 100% distilled water compared to a 50/50 mix of PG & distilled water. The funny part is that I saw about 10-12F drop before I put the WW in the straight distilled water. :think:
I realize your in the business to sell the product but the blurbs "by as much as 50F" splashed about just come across as a bit excessive. If you were to state "typical reductions of 15-20F are seen and reductions of 50F are possible." it might be a little less stressful backing it up without hard numbers. A graphical comparison of plain water, std. coolant, product WW, and E.I. operating under the same conditions done by an independant lab would be interesting to see also.
I have used Redline's product in my project car and the real world difference was -15F in 100% distilled water compared to a 50/50 mix of PG & distilled water. The funny part is that I saw about 10-12F drop before I put the WW in the straight distilled water. :think:
I buy my own propylene glygol, distilled water and add Redline. The distilled vs deionized thing baffles me. Are there any real world benefits of using deionized water as opposed to distilled? And are the differences big enough to worry about since we aren't working in a lab setting?
(I tend to sneeze alot when rebuilding my top ends)
(I tend to sneeze alot when rebuilding my top ends)
marcusgunby
LIFETIME SPONSOR
- Jan 9, 2000
- 6,450
- 2
bwalker you have summed up my thinking exactly.Added very pure water to a rad is like watering your garden with it.Members should also be aware ultra pure water is corrosive in nature as its so pure it leeches out chemicals from the things it comes into contact with.
- Thread starter
- #43
I have been told (this is a cobbed post) - Don't use pure (e.g. 5 megaohm or greater) deionized water in your cooling systems as it is very corrosive. The lack of ions in the water will cause it to 'look' for ions elsewhere - like your cylinder or radiators!
I wonder if the "ion grabbing" theory isn't overexaggerated, though. The have equipment at work that must use deionized water, the water flows through a variety of metallic components, and we haven't ever had problems with corrosion. No additives are used.
EngIceDave
Member
- Nov 2, 2001
- 28
- 0
However, if the proper combination of propriatary inhibitors is suspended within the fluid, it will be non-corrosive.
steve125
LIFETIME SPONSOR
- Oct 19, 2000
- 1,252
- 0
Ive been running the ICE this summer in my 125's. My main goal in trying it was to see if it would rid my bikes of the coolant overflow problem after a hard moto id been having. I had been running a 50/50 mix of antifreeze and water when it gets cold or in the summer just water and Water Weter. In either case i was getting a bit of cooant loss out of the overflow. So far with the E ICE ive had no coolant loss at all. Does my engine run cooler? Don't know, but now I don't feel the need to buy a radiator cap thats rated at a higher pressure.
bwalker
LIFETIME SPONSOR
- Jan 10, 2000
- 839
- 0
Corrosion may not be a problem, but the question in my mind is why the DI water in the first place? Its a fact that any DI water added to a cooling system on a bike will quickly ionize as it comes in contact with the charged particle present in the sytem.
In my opinion, the cost of producing deionized water is far greater than the cost of water distillation. I see no added benifits that make me think that I will be better off with DI water.
Plus, it's kinda like case oil, if you change it often you can worry less about the integrity of the fluid. Isn't good enough, good enough?
The biggest benefit I see from Engine Ice and similar products is that you don't have to mix.
Plus, it's kinda like case oil, if you change it often you can worry less about the integrity of the fluid. Isn't good enough, good enough?
The biggest benefit I see from Engine Ice and similar products is that you don't have to mix.
EngIceDave
Member
- Nov 2, 2001
- 28
- 0
Let me preface this by saying that I am not a chemist by any means. I had a basic concept, took it to a chemist and after many variations, we came upon what is now called “Engine Ice.”
This is the way I understand how it all works…if you’re a chemist and find a flaw in this, let me say again, I am not a chemist, but this is they way I understand it.
It’s a base of Propylene Glycol. Di water is added along with some proprietary inhibitors to “neutralize” the corrosive effects of the Di water…. there is a bit more in the additive department, but that is a trade secret and I realize you guys don’t like the “secret” part of things, but many chemical products have trade information that isn’t disseminated to the public. If it were, everyone would be copying everything. For the record also, we presently have four patents pending on Engine Ice. For information or verification on the patent applications you can contact Rey Whitty and the Law Firm of Akerman, Senterfit, et al, West Palm Beach, Florida…please keep it short, they’re expensive…LOL :whiner:
Di water is the purest water available. Similar to something like “triple distilled” water. The following is information provided to me by a chemist (not my present chemist) quite a while ago.
---------------------------------------------------------
The quality of water (deionized or distilled) is measured in units of conductivity or the inverse, which is resistivity. The less dissolved salts in the water, the more resistive it is, and therefore, less conductive. It's as simple as that.
Units of measurement are the ohm-cm3 (resistance) or mho-cm3 (conductivity). When water gets really pure, the resistance is measured in millions of Ohms, or meg-ohm or the inverse, micro-mho. Occasionally, microsiemens are used interchangeably with micro-mho.
So:
Tap water = 0.05 meg-ohm
Distilled water (once) = 0.5 meg-ohm
Distilled water (three times) = 1 meg-ohm
Distilled water (28 times in Quartz) 18.3 meg-ohm
Theoretical quality = 26 meg-ohm
Deionized water is generally on par with 3 times distilled. Is low quality deionized water. Normally, 2-5 meg-ohm is not uncommon in industrial processes.
-------------------------------------------------------------
When all of the components of Engine Ice are blended initially, it actually gets warm in the mixing drum. It’s my understanding that is caused by the “reactivation” of the Di water. Now, for the most part, it isn’t “technically” Di anymore, because it’s picked up the ions from the inhibitors within the blend. However, it is pure or lets say more pure than what you mix with distilled water. It is the overall purity of the blend that aids in its cooling abilities. If you’ve ever taken a pure water and poured it over a smooth surface, like metal or plastic, it beads almost like on a freshly waxed car…or another way to say this might be that is rolls over the surface very smoothly. It’s this “smooth flow” that’s created that also aids in it working (cooling), in effect, a surfactant like action. As with Water Wetter or any surfactant product, it is this smooth flow that allows the coolant fluid to “rub” more closely to the metal surfaces and in turn remove additional heat.
PG itself is a lubricant, so that keeps all the moving parts, seals and gaskets well lubricated and in turn helps to reduce seal and gasket failures. PG is used in many everyday things such as cosmetics, hand lotions, hair conditioners, car waxes, food products and more. We also contend that the overall purity of the product (Di water blend) also aids in the reduction of the gasket and seal failures.
If there is any concern for corrosion of the metals within your machines, in the State of Florida, where we are based, we must send a sample to the State of Florida for testing. They test the Ph, the Boil Point and Freeze Point as well as, corrosion testing on Aluminum, Magnesium, Copper, Steel and a host of other metals.
I hope I answered some of your questions without making too much of a fool of myself...and also not being accused of spamming.
Rich, I am looking into labs for testing...but it isn't a quick process (or cheap) to get done.
This is the way I understand how it all works…if you’re a chemist and find a flaw in this, let me say again, I am not a chemist, but this is they way I understand it.
It’s a base of Propylene Glycol. Di water is added along with some proprietary inhibitors to “neutralize” the corrosive effects of the Di water…. there is a bit more in the additive department, but that is a trade secret and I realize you guys don’t like the “secret” part of things, but many chemical products have trade information that isn’t disseminated to the public. If it were, everyone would be copying everything. For the record also, we presently have four patents pending on Engine Ice. For information or verification on the patent applications you can contact Rey Whitty and the Law Firm of Akerman, Senterfit, et al, West Palm Beach, Florida…please keep it short, they’re expensive…LOL :whiner:
Di water is the purest water available. Similar to something like “triple distilled” water. The following is information provided to me by a chemist (not my present chemist) quite a while ago.
---------------------------------------------------------
The quality of water (deionized or distilled) is measured in units of conductivity or the inverse, which is resistivity. The less dissolved salts in the water, the more resistive it is, and therefore, less conductive. It's as simple as that.
Units of measurement are the ohm-cm3 (resistance) or mho-cm3 (conductivity). When water gets really pure, the resistance is measured in millions of Ohms, or meg-ohm or the inverse, micro-mho. Occasionally, microsiemens are used interchangeably with micro-mho.
So:
Tap water = 0.05 meg-ohm
Distilled water (once) = 0.5 meg-ohm
Distilled water (three times) = 1 meg-ohm
Distilled water (28 times in Quartz) 18.3 meg-ohm
Theoretical quality = 26 meg-ohm
Deionized water is generally on par with 3 times distilled. Is low quality deionized water. Normally, 2-5 meg-ohm is not uncommon in industrial processes.
-------------------------------------------------------------
When all of the components of Engine Ice are blended initially, it actually gets warm in the mixing drum. It’s my understanding that is caused by the “reactivation” of the Di water. Now, for the most part, it isn’t “technically” Di anymore, because it’s picked up the ions from the inhibitors within the blend. However, it is pure or lets say more pure than what you mix with distilled water. It is the overall purity of the blend that aids in its cooling abilities. If you’ve ever taken a pure water and poured it over a smooth surface, like metal or plastic, it beads almost like on a freshly waxed car…or another way to say this might be that is rolls over the surface very smoothly. It’s this “smooth flow” that’s created that also aids in it working (cooling), in effect, a surfactant like action. As with Water Wetter or any surfactant product, it is this smooth flow that allows the coolant fluid to “rub” more closely to the metal surfaces and in turn remove additional heat.
PG itself is a lubricant, so that keeps all the moving parts, seals and gaskets well lubricated and in turn helps to reduce seal and gasket failures. PG is used in many everyday things such as cosmetics, hand lotions, hair conditioners, car waxes, food products and more. We also contend that the overall purity of the product (Di water blend) also aids in the reduction of the gasket and seal failures.
If there is any concern for corrosion of the metals within your machines, in the State of Florida, where we are based, we must send a sample to the State of Florida for testing. They test the Ph, the Boil Point and Freeze Point as well as, corrosion testing on Aluminum, Magnesium, Copper, Steel and a host of other metals.
I hope I answered some of your questions without making too much of a fool of myself...and also not being accused of spamming.
Rich, I am looking into labs for testing...but it isn't a quick process (or cheap) to get done.
