Expert opinions on AMA 144 rule?

[CJG]

I think alot of people who buy super loud aftermarket exhausts(not talking about just a shorty silencer on a two-stroke) just don't understand how sound works. Some(maybe most) people don't understand that the decibel scale is not linear, it's logarithmic. So a bike putting out 106dB is not ~10% louder than one putting out 96dB, but in fact it is 100% louder because the human ear judges an approx. 10dB increase in sound to be twice as loud.

As Rich aluded to, low frequency sounds travel MUCH farther than high frequency sounds. IMO this is why we're seeing an increase in track closings of late. Not because four-strokes are louder when you're standing trackside(they are), but because they are A LOT louder far away from the track. Now people who didn't even know there was a track a half-mile away are very much aware of it.

 

[KX02]

Yeah, I agree CJG. At one riding area I go to the owner handed me a flyer saying he reserves the right to kick anyone out he feels like for having an overly loud exhaust because of not wanting to be shut down because of complaints from the neighbors. He lets me unload and fire up right at the entrance because I have a 2 stroke, can't say the same for quads and 4 stroke bikes w/aftermarket pipes. People have been installing after market exhausts and other parts on their 2 strokes for decades the same as people are now installing them on the new wave of 4 strokes. The difference is that the 4 strokes have taken the noise level to a new and much more offensive level. Plain and simple. I don't know what all the smoke and mirrors and denial is all about. It seems like some people secretly own alot of stock in companies making valves, cams, and springs for 4 strokes. :think:

 

[Rich Rohrich]

The problem is fairly clear. Places that used to be wide open are becoming areas that are sold to developers for new housing. As a result you end up with housing much closer to racetracks and riding areas then we had in the past. The range of things that used to be acceptable becomes narrower all the time. People who don't like having a racetrack or riding area near their new "home in the country" tend to be pretty good at getting organized and eliminating the "problem". Loud bikes just give them more ammo to shoot us with. It seems to me that there is no easy short term solution. The AMA has never done anything but pay lip service to the enforcement of their own sound limits, and as a result the OEMs have just built what they have to to stay competitive. Except for a few rare exceptions the aftermarket pipe guys (2T & 4T) have only made a tough issue worse.

Even if a large number of riders go back to two-strokes with the 144cc rule and a fear of four-stroke maintenance, the 98-102 db that two-strokes are putting out will still be an issue in a lot of areas.

This isn't about 2Ts or 4Ts being the root cause, it's about, people who don't like motorsports in their back yard doing what they can to eliminate it.

Unless we can find a way to re-pack public conciousness this problem can only get worse.

Regardless of what we ride it seems like we face a future where we'll have a lot fewer riding areas, and the ones we do have will be in really remote areas far from populated areas. Sounds a lot like Nuclear power plants.

 

[CJG]

Rich,
I agree that all bikes need to be quieter, but I still think the four-strokes exacerbate the problem. When you compare a four-stroke with 102dB to a two-stroke with 102dB, those numbers are only relevant at the point at which the numbers were determined(say 20"). At 200 yds. those numbers are meaningless. At that distance the four-stroke will, from my experience, sound louder. Step on out to 1/2 mile and it's very likely that you will no longer be able to hear the two-stroke while the four-stroke will still be coming through loud and clear.

Personally, I'd like to see the AMA set the max sound level to 94dB and then actually enforce it. Sure, bikes would be a little less powerful than they are now. At least at first. But who cares if you have to give up three horsepower, as long as everyone else does too. This could be made to work at the pro level, and maybe even in the amateurs. But for recreational riders, as long as there are loud pipes to buy people will buy them. I just don't see any way to get all of the aftermarket manufacturers to voluntarily set a limit on sound output. And that's what would have to happen to really make a difference.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Personally, I'd like to see the AMA set the max sound level to 94dB and then actually enforce it.

That would be an excellent start, and if tracks and riding areas enforced a similar db level the market for general purpose use 106 db pipes would dry up pretty quickly.

 

[SpDyKen]

The noise level at SX races is causing me to reconsider buying tickets to the Atlanta race next year. Getting louder every year.

 

[Eric Gorr]

Mike T, heres what I'd like to see the AMA do so I can get my $35 a year worth, cuz quite frankly pins, stickers, and a boring magazine aren't exactly making it......

Ralph Nader, before he was a long shot presidential candidate he was a consumer advocate in the 1960s that wrote a landmark book titled "Corvair-Unsafe At Any Speed". He really uncovered engineering programs geared towards limiting the lifespan of automobiles and their individual components that were designed to extract the maximum lifetime value for a car with maintenance and parts replacement combined in the equation. Ralph put a spotlight on the dirty little secrets of the automotive industry, particularly GM. He compiled data on the Chevrolet Corvair, with everything on the average life of components, survey data from crashes, internal memos from GM and a lot of other stuff that would make the hair stand up on the back of your head.
Ralph's book caused a revolution in Tort Law, the field that governs product liability. And although nowadays people dis on lawyers involved in product liability and personal injury litigation, all those court room hours have served to make manufacturers accountable and have given us a safer world.

When I was a kid, my brother and sister and I rode around in cars with no seat belts and metal dashboards with sharp edges. Now we have cars with 6 air bags, alarms, padded dash boards and windows that don't roll down all the way. We have all these things in new cars because a lot of little kids got killed in car crashes that happened under 30mph. Everytime I hear my seat belt alarm makes that annoying ring, I think of Ralph. Like the alarm he may be a bit annoying, but he did his job well and he saved an untold number of lives.

The 1960s were littered with safety hazards that big corporations knew about but made monetary decisions based on profit. PBS's Frontline program featured a report on Union Carbide and all the products made from vinyl chloride. They documented corporate memos of how they knew that products made with vinyl chloride caused cancer, yet they didn't pull good selling products like White Rain hair spray. My mom used that product for 20 years, and now she is dying of cancer. Ralph made better engineers out of a generation of Americans born in the 1950s and 60s who grew up hearing of his conquests of holding big companies accountable for their engineering decisions.

Here is a little insight into how products are engineered. When an engine is designed its broken down into components. Engineering teams are selected based on their specialty, a balanced blend of talent. The first thing they do is compile a list of standards established by the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) in America and the JSAE in Japan. Engineers look at materials, manufacturing methods, past performance of popular designs, and testing and certification methods. Engineers try to make the best compromise between cost limitations, performance. reliability, and design standards. But some companies use another formula, that which creates components that violate standards, wear quickley, and skirt the line of product liability in order to maximize part changes and the resultant profits. Thats the kind of stuff that used to get Ralph's attention, and back in the 1960s and 70s, no CEO wanted to raise a red flag in Ralph's face. That kind of stuff runs rampant in Japanese motorcycle engineering because dirt bikers are in general as my favorite writer David Pingree said in Racer X "mostly white trash" which means that when something breaks and causes them to crash, their not likely to sue a manufacturer because they don't have the wear with all and the resources.

Right now there is a lot of dodgey engineering going on in Japan, with engineers working in teams with lawyers and actuaries. And that is surprising considering that Yamaha got nailed for a 24 million dollar judgement 2 years ago for a violation of JSAE standards regarding the use of decorative chrome on an internal engine part. To be fair to Yamaha, I feel that they have the best engineering teams that think responsibly and that its not fair that they got sued for a problem caused by a sub-contracter (Mikuni).

Right now Rich and I are really ticked off at Suzuki and Kawasaki for their collaborative design of the 250F. And we've restrained ourselves pretty well. OK I know some of you guys just blew whatever you were drinking through your noses laughing at Rich acting restrained, but you really don't want to ask his opinion about a RMZ or KXF! Although we don't encourage product liability lawsuits, I'm sure that all the profits that these two companies have extracted from the bevy of parts needed to keep these bikes running between the snow fences will quickly get extracted from members of the American Trial Lawyers Association, in the spirit of Ralph.

 

[bclapham]

dont listen to Rich when it comes to talking about loud bikes, that thing of his is sooo loud you can hear it in Illinois when he rides it in Wisconcin. :)

 

[Rich Rohrich]

But keep in mind Bruce, when I ride it in areas with neighbors near by, it has a stock exhaust system on it that has been modified to be quieter than OEM. ;)

 

[Eric Gorr]

Bovine Fecies! Tell everybody about the time when you rode down the street in front of the shop and set off the alarms on the cars across the street! I can just imagine the calls to the police in Streamwood with the cops responding, oh thats just Rich illegally riding his obnoxious dirt bike down the street. Guess it pays to give the cops cost on Parts Unltd stuff!

 

[Rich Rohrich]

I'm not worried about the city of Streamwood getting shut down as a riding area, so all bets are off there. ;)

But I was worried about the OT National getting shut down, so the ultra quiet stocker became the pipe of choice there after a couple of rides with the megaphone pipe convinced me that the extra power wasn't worth the risk of losing it as a riding spot.

 

[bclapham]

Tell everybody about the time when you rode down the street in front of the shop and set off the alarms on the cars across the street! I can just imagine the calls to the police in Streamwood with the cops responding, oh thats just Rich illegally riding his obnoxious dirt bike down the street.

hahahaha......Busted!!!!! lol :) he isnt just happy with upsetting Wisconsin dairy cows, now its small children and old ladies.

Me and Marcus went riding in Finningly last week, the track is right next to the airport. A dude there had a 06RM250, Euro model i assume- the silencer was a lot wider than the one on my US model. It still sounded nice tho, just not as loud as mine.

On another note, a guy in SoCal setup a track with all the sound tests etc. a modded 250smoker would pass easily, but a stock thumper wouldnt. He said if the AMA matched the 96dbs limit for Europe, the place would have stayed open regardless of reeds vs cams. one bike at 102dbs sounds the same as 4 bikes at 96. Those fat harley riding slobs at the AMA really screwed up not setting the new limit at 96 this/next season.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Those fat harley riding slobs at the AMA really screwed up not setting the new limit at 96 this/next season.

They are all riding around with open pipes so they can't even hear the 106 db aftermarket pipes. :ohmy:

 

[bclapham]

They are all riding around with open pipes so they can't even hear the 106 db aftermarket pipes. :ohmy:

so true its scary. i live for racing, but since everything racing wise out here is run by the AMA, i just cant get over giving them money.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Chicago Harley is just down the street from my house, so it's pretty normal to hear a group of open pipe twins rolling down the road. It doesn't seem to bother people much around here because it only lasts for a couple of seconds. If they were doing laps around the neighborhood all afternoon people might take a different view. I have to believe that's part of the issue with housing near riding areas. The constant barrage of sound proabably wears on them. While the sounds probably seem sweet to riders, the general public probably doesn't share our view.

While I really appreciate the sound of an engine at full song, it's not worth trading a riding area for. I'll gladly run a super quiet pipe if it means I get to ride someplace that isn't 3 hours from home.

My meg pipe is relegated to the occasional street strafing run through the industrial park, and remote private riding areas. It's a great pipe but not very practical in most places.

 

[MikeT]

Thanks for the great response Eric. I like the history lesson and the whole response was very well written.

 

[RM_guy]

It looks like most you you got the jist of what I was trying to say. The thing is 2 strokes could have made quiet and environmentaly friendly if the the industry wanted to.

...and Rich, I'm no sound expert but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once :) Good link on sound :cool:

 

[Rich Rohrich]

...and Rich, I'm no sound expert but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once :)

I'm thinking that is all it takes to qualify for an AMA tech position.;)

 

[SpDyKen]

I'll gladly run a super quiet pipe if it means I get to ride someplace that isn't 3 hours from home.

I liked to turn up my music loud, as well as race more motorcycles than I can count, with loud exhausts, when I was younger. But I have also had to learn to deal with my Mother and several of my parents friends who have lost , or are loosing their hearing. I also have read studies on causes of hearing loss. My perspective has changed dramatically. I can go just as fast on a quiet bike as a loud bike, get the same adrenalin rush, and ultimately be less fatigued.
I believe we will all gain from quieter bikes.

Thanks, Eric and Rich, for all of your insight and perspective on this (and other topics, as well.) I think liability, noise, & soil erosion issues are something we should all be concerned with if we want the sport we all love to thrive. :ride:

 

[SpDyKen]

I forgot to note that I am not a real doctor, but I DID play one in my mind once. Or was that TV?

 

[2kCR500R]

Subscribing to this great read! :laugh: :cool:

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Thanks, Eric and Rich, for all of your insight and perspective on this (and other topics, as well.) I think liability, noise, & soil erosion issues are something we should all be concerned with if we want the sport we all love to thrive. :ride:

Yeah I think the fun times of just being happily oblivious to these things is over.

 

[motometal]

Ken-ever try earplugs? I noticed your post regarding fatigue. I rarely ride, street or dirt without foam earplugs. I think even a fairly quiet bike with causes hearing damage over the long term. I will warn you, it's addictive. Once you get used to wearing earplugs, the first time you unload and get ready to ride, and realize you forgot them, it will bum you out.

regarding bikes going around in circles being loud, yes I can relate. My house is about three miles from our riding area, the loudest I have ever heard bikes was in the winter time, on the ice track. Denser (cooler) air carries sound better as well.

And like several others have commented, I couldn't ever hear bikes at my house until the four strokes became popular. Are the bikes (four strokes) to blame? Yes and no. The new four strokes seem to have given more opportunity for folks to make more noise, but the owners are the real problem. I'm not sure if we should even blame the manufacturers of the pipes. They are making what the consumer wants. How can we change the mentality of the consumer? A loud pipe is a p#nis extender for some people. An ego boost. Hey, look at me. Just go to the parking lot at any riding area, and look for the revvers. You know, the ones that just can't resist the temptation of revving, revving revving their bike for five minutes before they go ride. How annoying.

Although annoying to others, why is this revving relevant to this discussion? Well, i'm not suggesting that silly warm up practices are causing loss of riding areas. I'm just illustrating the mentality of many folks. The noise and the revving (in nuetral!) is part of the fun, some of them can't really ride so the revving and the noise is all they have. I've seen folks unload (really loud four stroke qua$s), rev, wheelies through the parking lot, rev some more in the parking lot, beat up the kiddie track a bit, then load up. And yes, these are the same folks that have big cruisers with the loudest pipes available, and their bike never is allowed to idle at stoplight, of course it is revving, loud and proud.

How do we change this? Well, in reality many folks will always enjoy this revving and noise but we can increase the awareness of the problems it causes. I started having friendly chats with guys at our park when I notice they have loud pipes. Just letting them know that we have been having complaints about noise, and might lose the park if we don't keep it down. So far, everyone has been pretty friendly, surprisingly. I'm not holding my breath that they are going to go home and put that stock muffler/silencer back on though. At least they are aware, most of them make some comment that they had no idea that they were bothering anyone.

 

[mtk]

Ken-ever try earplugs? I noticed your post regarding fatigue. I rarely ride, street or dirt without foam earplugs. I think even a fairly quiet bike with causes hearing damage over the long term. I will warn you, it's addictive. Once you get used to wearing earplugs, the first time you unload and get ready to ride, and realize you forgot them, it will bum you out.

I do the exact same thing.

I also put a handful of plugs in the door pocket of my truck. They're the "emergeny stash" in case I forget them in my gear bag or whatever.

 

[Torch654]

I am glad to know that others think the 4 and 2 strokes should be separate classes. And that the AMA should have a 94 db limit. Maby then I could find a quieter silencer for my bike, FMF doesn't make a Q for my KX500.