Found a Tetraethyl lead octane booster

[whitesands26]

I was doing a search and found a genuine TEL octane booster it can be found at http://www.kemcooil.com/lead_supreme.php

Rich, what's your take on this stuff ? Do you think it's much better than the traditional octane boosters that contain mmt, mtbe, and all of the other stuff found in these products ?

Opinions appreciated..

Thanks

 

[bclapham]

Whitesands- the search is working again so there is loads of info to read up on. i will tell you two things!

1 There is so much more to race gas than just octane.

2 handling and storing concentrated solutions of TEL would be a BIG worry for me- (for what its worth, i have spent more than 10 years working in a organic chemistry lab and even spent a year at an oil refinery in an octane testing lab. )

3 race fuels that contain MTBE are very good for the smile factor, but I would avoid MMT and toluene

sorry i cant count!:)

 

[whitesands26]

I see what you're saying..That would be a bit of a concern...I'm just wanting to raise the octane a couple of points to avoid knocking..After doing a search yesterday and reading about how many octane boosters contain mmt and toulene and an assortment of other chemicals that aren't engine friendly I thought that TEL would be a better alternative to some of the bogus octane boosters out there...
On one of my searches Rich mentioned that if someone could find a genuine TEL octane booster to let him know....

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Originally posted by whitesands26
I'm just wanting to raise the octane a couple of points to avoid knocking.

Lead is pretty unpredicatable in the weird chemical mix that makes up current pump fuels, but this additive should probably accomplish your goal.

As Bruce pointed out be VERY CAREFUL. Concentrated TEL is really dangerous and can pass through your skin easily.

Let us know how it works for you.

 

[whitesands26]

Thanks Rich.....I'm going to give it a try but I'm probably going to have to end up going to straight C12 anyway like you guys have been recommending all along...lol

 

[nephron]

If you want to do it right, don't do it at all, unless you can afford a gas mask and ventilated mixing station.

All in all, there's a reason racegas is expensive, and one of those reasons is they have to pay for the equipment to mix the stuff.

 

[cujet]

Safety factors aside, Amoco 93 here in Florida seems to work well with Lead and Toluene as octane boosters. Lead has the advantage of cushioning effects on valve seats and possible crankshaft life extension in high RPM 2 strokes.

In any case, high octane fuel is the best way to prevent detonation and the resulting engine damage. Deronation is probably responsible for more engine failures and shortened engine lives than anything else.

I say give it a try, as it is probably cost effective.

Chris

 

[whitesands26]

Nephron...Is it really that toxic if you're just putting in a couple of ounces ? I mean, I'd definitely wear gloves but I didn't realize that just a small amount of fumes from opening a small can up real quick would be that bad....

If that's the case then I'm just going to go with C12..Screw the toxic issues!


Thanks for the info...

 

[bclapham]

Well, Nephron is a proper Doctor and he can give you more accurate answers on toxicity and the body, but i might estimate i have handled more nasty and diverse organic chemicals than everyone on this board put together. Often, these heavy metals are very toxic, but they arent a problem since they are not volatile and wont pass through the skin (generalizing here). when we put the 4 ethyl groups on the lead atom (tetraethyl-) it makes it very volatile and you can absorb it through inhalation or skin contact.

now, we may not feel the effects imediately, but these heavy metals dont clear from the body very well and the big problem is the build up after months of exposure.

this is even before we have gone down the road discusing sensitizers- ive seen people break out in a rash when a chemist opened a bottle of organo tins at the other side of a building since they had previously been exposed and sensitized. (organo tins arent that much different than organo leads if you find a perodic table)

so price up the whole deal, i dont think you will end up spending that much more on the C12 and not only will get the octane you need, you will also get an infinately better fuel for your application.

 

[motometal]

since we are on the topic here, it sounds like it's fairly common for "mainstream" race fuels to contain components which are not too good for us (MMT and Toluene, for example).  I suppose it comes down to researching which ones are the worst, and which fuels contain these components.  Makes me a bit more cautious about those times when I ride in a group right behind another bike, which is jetted way too rich and is spewing raw fuel fumes all day.

 

[nephron]

whitesands, go with the C12. The stuff has got to be the best bang for the buck of the fuels, and it smells nice. ;)

If you've got $50 laying around, get a presealed 5 gal. can of NUTEC Pro-MX, pour ONLY what you're going to burn that day, stay well clear of the fumes...you'll quickly realize that at least from a noxious standpoint, this fuel requires extra caution. I almost quit using it, until I learned better how to handle it.

It is, however, nectar of the bike gods. :worship:

 

[whitesands26]

Thanks for the info.......nutec pro-mx ? I'll look it up and see if I can find it on the net...I tried to get some C-12 last weekend and couldn't find anyone here in the DFW area that distribute it so I was stuck using pump causing me to search for some alternatives...

I'm definitely going to pass on my TEL idea...lol...Sounds too toxic for me to feel comfortable handling the stuff....I freak out when I get plain pump gas on my hands...lol

 

[JSTUCKI]

Mod Edit - Please don't post nonsense in this forum.

 

[cujet]

I agree that using the lowest octane fuel that does not allow detonation is a good policy, for cars, especially when money is a factor. However in many engines detonation goes undetected and does it's damage without the users knowing about it. I think that motorcycles, and expecially race bikes really need some form of electronic knock detector to be sure they are free of detonation.

I know this, users of really good fuels get longer engine life, that is good economy in my book.

Chris

 

[JSTUCKI]

When you get a mechanical engineering degree with an emphasis in combustion engine design then you can call my opinion non-sense! Just go to the VP web site and see how much HP gain they claim for their unleaded fuel! When lead is banned from pro racing the doubles will get closer together!

 

[JSTUCKI]

Oh, and by the way, the higher the octane, the slower the flame front. A very high octane fuel can reduce HP. Higher octane fuels have the same amount of energy as a low octane fuel. Just a fact Jack!

 

[whitesands26]

Originally posted by JSTUCKI
Oh, and by the way, the higher the octane, the slower the flame front. A very high octane fuel can reduce HP. Higher octane fuels have the same amount of energy as a low octane fuel. Just a fact Jack!

I've heard about this possibilty before....But I think that it wouldn't be an issue if you jet differently for the slowed flame front....Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the slowed flame front of high octane fuels the cause for a richer running condition and thus a small drop in horsepower ? Therefore, if you jet for the different fuel it would correct the rich running condition and the benefits of running the race fuel would be fully realized....Based on what I've learned this is all I can come up with...Comments are welcome

 

[motometal]

i'm not sure if higher octane actually can lower your power output, it just isn't necessary if there aren't any problems with detonation with a lower octane fuel.

Rich!  Help!

Oh well, if we really want to know the answer we should probably do a search.

For what it's worth, I have been running 110 octane fuel, which is way higher than I need, and it runs great.  Realistically, 95 would be more than enough, even with crisp jetting.

 

[jmics19067]

Originally posted by whitesands26


I've heard about this possibilty before....But I think that it wouldn't be an issue if you jet differently for the slowed flame front....Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the slowed flame front of high octane fuels the cause for a richer running condition and thus a small drop in horsepower ? Therefore, if you jet for the different fuel it would correct the rich running condition and the benefits of running the race fuel would be fully realized

If you are using a fuel with high boiling points<distillate rate> such as pump gas not enough of it vaporizs and mixes with the air to burn compared to a tailored fuel such as C12. That is why, if you run pump gas you need richer jets and get splooge. The pump fuel doesnt atomize very well making your air fuel mixture leaner<comparitively> with liquid fuel remaining that doesnt burn well giving you more splooge.

Oh, and by the way, the higher the octane, the slower the flame front. A very high octane fuel can reduce HP. Higher octane fuels have the same amount of energy as a low octane fuel. Just a fact Jack!

That blanket statement is not true, It is more dependant on the makeup of the fuel. Depending on the makeup you can have a different rate of burn iether matching or not matching<losing horspeower> the combustion chamber design. Octane ratings have nothing to do with fuel characteristics except its ability to control engine knock. That is why VP racing has 20 -30 different fuels, so you can match the fuel that best fits your circumstances.

 

[bclapham]

Originally posted by JSTUCKI
When you get a mechanical engineering degree

JSTUCKI, welcome to DRN! :) if you use the search button and look up "race gas" you will find there are a few people here that have very good experience with these matters.

However, if you want to start throwing qualifications around, you will loose. :confused: Although i could see why you made your statements, i feel that you cant just throw down blanket statements and not expect to get hammered by anyone with a limited background in tuning and fuels. :eek:

for what its worth, i have rubbed shoulders with Nobel Laureates and i have found that all the qualifications in the world do not make you exempt from hitting the "do not exceed" limiter on the bull$hitometer! :thumb:

regards

BC

 

[jmics19067]

anyone with a limited

hey i resemble that remark :confused:

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Originally posted by JSTUCKI
When you get a mechanical engineering degree with an emphasis in combustion engine design then you can call my opinion non-sense!

You should have studied CHEMISTRY harder while you were in school. :silly:

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Originally posted by JSTUCKI
Oh, and by the way, the higher the octane, the slower the flame front.

STOP with this inaccurate CRAP. I don't have time to keep cleaning up after you so if you can't be bothered to do some simple investigation on a basic chemical process, then QUIT POSTING IN THIS FORUM. This subject has been covered CORRECTLY ad-infinitum and we don't need the flavor of the month "look at me I have an engineering degree" knucklehead mucking up the works with incorrect information.

 

[trialsmasta]

Ok I had a hard time in Chemistry, so I don't undertsand any of this chemicals and additives and what they do. All I want is a cheap alternative to race gas. Can any of you reccomend a brand of octane booster or specifically what it needs to contain so that I can safely run it in my 125. I was hoping i could pick up one from an Auto parts store since they are like $5 cheaper than my local motorcycle shop. Can there be any ill affects to your engines lubrication by mixing ocatne booster in a pre mix?

 

[cujet]

trialsmasta, Be very careful what you choose to use. If you are using a cheap alcohol based octane booster and premix, expect fuel/oil separation. I used to use 104+ in the racing formulation, not the basic 104+. It contained MMT, which is an effective octane booster. MMT will leave colored deposits on the spark plug and inside the exhaust on some engines. This does not seem to affect performance, however it makes plug reading more difficult.

Chris