D14 Sanctioning Meeting for 2008

[Smit-Dog]

FYI...

The District 14 Sanctioning Meeting for the 2008 season will be held on Saturday, December 1st, 2007. Any new rule proposals will be reviewed and voted upon, and the '08 schedule will be approved.

If you have any Enduro Division rule proposals or questions on the meeting, please contact Enduro Chairman Thomas Dunn and Enduro Rider Rep Craig Scott. PM me if you need their phone / e-mail contact info.

Time
The general district meeting will begin at 12:00PM, with the divisional meetings starting approximately 1:00PM.

Location
Best Western Midway Hotel
7711 W Saginaw Highway
Lansing, MI 48917-1137

Phone
(877) 772-6100

Map
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=...574&spn=0.252097,0.63858&z=11&iwloc=addr&om=1

Any and all riders are welcomed to attend the meeting.

NOTE: Phone number to hotel corrected.

 

[fatherandson]

I'll be there.

 

[nzambon]

I would like to have a new rule proposed. It is if you wish to ride and be scored for district points you must work a event. And this means from start to finished. Here is what I see as the benifits 1 more hands = less work 2 the more that riders get involved the better for series to grow. Sorry I can't make the meeting hope some one will pick up on this. On a side note D16 meeting adopted the scoring that you get points where you finish no breaking out district riders. Retired trail boss Nick

 

[fatherandson]

Nick,
Did D16 pass the worker rule too? I think it would be easier to manage in D16 as there are fewer riders.
Another D16 question.....does the district 16 fund the enduro banquet awards? D14 does NOT! The D14 enduro riders fund their own banquet awards. If a D15 or D16 rides not also have a D14 card, no money is put into the fund. I do not mind competing with them for trophies, but I think the D14 points should be assigned/available to D14 members only.
Not smart enough to be a trail boss Mike

 

[Smit-Dog]

According to Speedy Pete, the only rule D16 passed was in how they assign points. D15, D16, & D17 will now all do it the same way.

 

[bucky63]

Some facts based on the year end results about D16 are that only two enduros put on by D16 clubs (Madison MC and Sandstormers) and one other held in D16 but put on by a D23 club. The other seven D16 events were put on by the neighboring clubs in other districts.

Of the 91 riders that were awarded D16 points, 19 worked (21%) an D16 event. 14 of the 19 workers were involved in four or more D16 events. 14 other riders rode four or more D16 enduros without working any but some like Ryan Moss worked an event in his home district. 44 of the 91 riders (almost 50%) rode only one D16 event.

It would be interesting to see other districts' "worker" breakdown.

 

[fatherandson]

According to Speedy Pete, the only rule D16 passed was in how they assign points. D15, D16, & D17 will now all do it the same way.

I think the area where the districts need to be more consistent is with classes that are offered.

Bucky, I am sure Mr. SmitDog can provide provide some stats on D14.

 

[Smit-Dog]

A draft of the 2008 D14 Rule Proposals can be found here:

www.d14enduro.org/rule_proposals/2008/2008_d14_enduro_rule_proposals.pdf

Please provide feedback, opinions, suggestions, additions, etc.

Thanks...

 

[bbarel]

As always thanks again Bill for sharing. Here are my comments...

A Rule 1 - Classes
I hate to see the Women's class dropped, but was hoping FES would groom new talent!

B Rule 12 - AA Rows
For AA row assignment I don't agree with option #1 to reserve rows, but are optional. Either assign the rows or don't reserve any. Can’t have it both ways. This would waste prime rows that other riders could have used, and allows more advantage to AA's over A riders aspiring to join the AA ranks.

D Rule 23 – Workers
If working an event is made mandatory for district points, then please consider relaxing the April-1 deadline because some riders may not get informed of the mandatory worker rule by April-1. Maybe the deadline should be X weeks before the event to be worked.

 

[KTM Mike]

I like the proposed change on C Senior age classification.

Worker points - honestly, I wonder how this would be managed? How many riders did we have earning series points? Let's say it is 100 riders. Now we have 100 workers - which is great! But with this big influx of workers, I suspect we will have more workers who think they only need to show up the day of the event, maybe 1 day before hand. Even if we get them to show up for the BIG work weeks before hand, much of that work requires some degree of continuity and familiarity with what is going on. Someone shows up to get things initially laid out, then a different crew shows the next weekend - with no clue where to go etc. when the trail boss says " ok, go lay out that south east section, and move that one chunk east a bit to better tie into that two track".

For this to work more meaningfully, I think there should be some definition of what it means to work an event - not just day of, at least X hours, at least X hours 1 week or more in advance of event...that sort of thing.

I like the option 2 for automatic advancement. As I understand it, they do something similar in MX in D-14?

Fee waiver for 16 year olds - how about making it for any under 18? (and I am not saying that simply because that is where Mitch will be next year - 17 - I am not worried about paying his fees!). Would broaden the meaningfulness of it slightly? If the goal here is to help kids move up, bring in a couple more years worth of them? Over 18 though - oh so sorry...they should do that on their own nickel!

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

On rule 1A on the age change for the C Senior class I prefer the 35+ age break than the 40+. I'm 38 now and am already pretty beat up and am definitely not in the same ranks as the 20 year olds.

On the row assignments for the AA riders just a consideration but it is nice for this slow rider to know where they are so I can have an idea where the crazy fast guys are so I can be prepared to get out of their way. An aside on that has there ever been consideration of some kind of marking on the backs of us C riders so the fast guys coming up behind us know they are about to pass an inexperienced rider? When I was road racing novices had to wear a 10x10 white patch on the backs of their leathers for just this reason.

 

[Smit-Dog]

For reference... In 2007:

- 26 D14 members earned enduro worker points
- We had a total of 225 paid D14 members who competed in the enduro series
- So..... Approximately 12% of those who competed in the series worked an event

Here is the list of the 26 guys you can thank (among dozens of other unnamed volunteers!) for working an event so that we (the other 88%) can race them!

John Bombyk
Josh Conner
Ted "Steel Man" del Solar
Thomas Dunn
Dewayne Dusendang
Jeff Fredette
James Garber
Jeff Kirkwood
Mike Kurncz
Jeff Magowan
Bryan Marsh
Don Marsh
Michael Martin
Mike Maurer
Jay McAllister
Russell Norman
Steve Pawlak Sr
Alan Randt
Mike Ricketts
John Ryan
Dennis Sanders
Neal Soenksen
Mike Stephenson
Fred Thompson
David Tripp
Nick Zambon

 

[CR250R@WINTERS]

I am going out on a limb here and hopefully will not offend anyone. After having worked an event this year and having had a blast doing it, I intend to work another and maybe even more than one next year. However as in years past, there is always the discussion as to how many hours so and so worked compared to another and yet both get 1st place points.

How hard would it be to have the trailboss keep track of hours worked or days worked by an individual and then at the end, tally hours, days worked etc, and classify such hours/days as 1st. place, 2nd place, etc.

30 hours plus equals 1st place points
1 day equals.............
blah blah blah

Either way, I had a lot of fun helping put on the Treetopper this year!

 

[KTM Mike]

Gee whiz Mike - then you and I should of gotten at least 2 first places! ;^)

Good idea though - that would also address some of the concern I mentioned before - an every changing guard of workers. Your method would provide a real reason to put in the time well in advance, as well as on race day. How about something like this:


less than 8 hours: nothing
8 to 15 hours Fourth Place points
16 to 23 Third Place Points
24 to 31 Second Place Points
32 and above First Place Points

Only downside might be someone who customarily places say 1st and Second, but has time limitations such they can only work 8 hours, actually hurts their standings by working.

 

[CR250R@WINTERS]

Gee whiz Mike - then you and I should of gotten at least 2 first places! ;^)

Our choice though!



Only downside might be someone who customarily places say 1st and Second, but has time limitations such they can only work 8 hours, actually hurts their standings by working.

Definetly a draw-back! But then again a 3rd that replaces a DNF race still might help throughout the year sometime.

 

[Wolverine423]

So far from what I have seen I think the clubs do a good job giving approval and not giving approval for worker points. I say continue to leave it up to the clubs own discretion & guide lines. If you start measuring up hours for hours & tit for tat then you might just as well consider driving time for everyone as well. As you can see it’s just gonna open up a can of worms all together.

 

[salgeek]

New Rule: Marking Dangerous Trail Hazards. Stike this rule.

I grew up riding fields in Indy & woods and fields in Mich.

Woods riding has led to significantly more hospital visits than all other types of riding combined for me personally.

Give me a bean field and I'll run 70+ any day
Give me a corn field and I'll only run 40 or so
Give me a super slab and I'll run 100.
Give me woods and I'll 20 or so.

The super slab is where I'm most concerned about a fatal crash. Truck tires and old mufflers are death traps. I've nearly met my "maker" only once - oddly enough in route to LC for a parts run.

Corn fields are the 2nd worst thing. I Started riding fields at 5yrs old in Indy. Learned early on you can BIFF it big time in a field. The combination of speed and the unknown obstacles make it THE biggest danger for serious offroad injury for me personally.

As for woods - That is where all of my regular less serious injuries have occurred[concussions, broken toes, broken fingers, broken hand, blown knees, bloody urine, speared face, speared stomach, cuts, bruises, sprains, dislocations etc. etc..] Luckily now we don't race sections with tall ferns through stump fields. Good luck trying to mark all those obstacles.

I ride 200 + days a year and have for decades on end. Corn fields are an F'in thrill - don't change a thing. I'll take my chances knowing the fields and woods are lawless and ruleless.

IMO - Rules such as these transfer some of the responsibility of safety from the rider and open clubs and landowners to lawsuits - Read-increased insurance cost.

 

[bucky63]

Just an idea...

The idea is to pay worker points as currently done but include a voucher to wave for the entry fee for a future event (adult or FES). You might get more people to volunteer by basically paying them $40 to $50 in addition to getting the worker points.

Using this voucher in D14 events outside of D14 would probably need to be negotiated with the hosting club (D14 may have to pay the club for the voucher) or say it is only good for "in D14" events where the hosting club is eating the cost of the voucher to thank a neighboring clubs' workers for putting on their event.

 

[bruno670]

I think that the manditory worker rule stinks to high heaven. Some of the racers work 50+ hours a week and don't have time to put into helping at a race. I think that this would end up hurting the turnouts at the events.
One rule ADDITION that I feel needs to be addressed most of you can guess. SWEEP RIDERS! Manditory, nothing less.

 

[TCTrailrider]

New Rule: Marking Dangerous Trail Hazards. Stike this rule.

QUOTE]

Scott, Not surprised to see you paddeling up stream, seems to be a pattern. Buttttttt....... to not support efforts to improve safety seem to be :coocoo:

 

[salgeek]

New Rule: Marking Dangerous Trail Hazards. Stike this rule.

QUOTE]

Scott, Not surprised to see you paddeling up stream, seems to be a pattern. Buttttttt....... to not support efforts to improve safety seem to be :coocoo:

The rule seems aimed at certain enduros. I'm basing this assumption on the items specifically listed in the rules where danger markers would be required/expected.

I personally find small slippery logs, fast narrow tree sections, overhanging branches, dust and oppressive heat more dangerous; but, would never want to see them marked as such.

Suggesting that I'm not keen on improving safety is not really fair - IMO. But, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

 

[Smit-Dog]

During an enduro I fully expect logs, trees, mud, dust, heat, rain, snow, sleet, ice, faceslappers, rocks, roots, ruts, sand, water, whoops, etc.

I do not expect to run into hidden / unseen / un-marked barb wire fences, rusted out car frames, lone steel posts next to the trail, piles of scrap metal, discarded concrete, etc.

At some events where this type of stuff is present, it's clearly marked. In other events, not at all. You're right in that the rule is aimed at certain enduros - those that do not mark these types of hazards.

 

[Smit-Dog]

Revisions were made to the following sections:

1-C: Event Forms / Results
-> Failure to pay assessment clause

1-D: Events Counted in Series / Breaking Ties
-> Tie breaker rules amended

1-E: Working and Event & Worker Points
-> Reworded a bit, added Issues section

2-D: Automatic Class Advancement
-> Changed advance cut-off from 16 points to 15 points to be consistant with the AMA RPV cut-off.

2-F: Marking Dangerous Trail Hazards
-> Minor verbiage changes

http://www.d14enduro.org/rule_proposals/2008/2008_d14_enduro_rule_proposals.pdf

 

[fatherandson]

Wow Smit Dog you have been very busy this offseason.
I plan to attend the meeting so I hesitated to respond. However, I realize that there will only be four or five people who have voting rights at the meeting. Also, it is important to realize that those who visit the on line chat rooms are NOT the only riders/clubs who have an opinion.
I'll try to keep this brief...
Rule 1 - no change necessary. We have some ladies interested in riding on Sunday and I think the "Vet" distinction in the C class is appropriate.
Rule 12 - option # 1 looks VERY familiar. Word for word the proposal that I submitted to Tom Dunn two weeks ago.
Rule 17 Clarifying paragraph 1 - OK. No need for paragraph 2 - if we need to add anything it would be...use MotoTalley are die! :)
Rule 22 - fix the typo and clarify the tie breakers. OK.
Rule 23 - no change necessary - we changed it last year and it worked in 2007.
Proposed rule A - if a rider pays the $40 and breaks down a mile from the start - GIVE THE POINTS for supporting our sport!
B - do we need a rule? I thought Bill was already enforcing this issue.
C & D - WOW!!!! We would double the size of our rule book if we installed this proposal. I do not think it necessary for the district to solve this issue. Please refer it to the AMA.
E - If somebody wants to provide financial incentive to increase our attendance on Sunday, please do so. The Family Enduro Series did for four of its banquet award winners WITHOUT a rule change. We do not need a rule to make this happen.
F - AGAIN - WOW!!! You can NOT transfer the responsibility for safety onto the club. It will KILL your series. We all know that riding is dangerous. Accept the responsibility as a competitor OR DO NOT RIDE. This response from the guy who hit the truck frame IN MICHIGAN - NOT INDIANA!!!!

 

[Fred T]

All I got to say is "holy crap!" :bang: The reason I ride on the weekends is I want to get away from the government legislative grips on the weekends and ride my motorcycle not have to hire a lawer to represent me at sign up and trophy presentation. :yikes: Vote for me: Fred Thompson :cool: